Adjusting the Pokémon Games

[Brawler4Ever]

While working on the "Unofficial Pokémon Gold/Silver Replacement" Project, I raised a concern about how the games should be organized. This my original post on the matter. Basically, I believe that our current system of organizing the songs from Pokémon games is inefficient, even to the point of being confusing for both arrangers and readers.

A short history of Pokémon games

To fully understand my concern, you need to know the history of Pokémon games. I'm not talking about lore; I'm referring to the actual release dates of the games. Pokémon Blue and Pokémon Red came out in 1996. Yellow followed in 1998. Pokémon Gold and Pokémon Silver came out in. 1999. Pokémon Crystal came out in 2000. Ruby and Sapphire came out in 2002. Emerald came out in 2004. Pokémon Mystery Dungeon: Explorers of Time and PMD: Explorers of Darkness came out in 2007. PMD: Explorers of Sky was released in 2009.

[close]

As shown by the history, each generation of Pokémon games comes out in a duo. Each initial set of games, music-wise, is the exact same. I'm not aware of any songs found in Blue that are not found in Red, for example, or songs found in Ruby that are not found in Sapphire. However, the same cannot be said for the third game in each generation. There are songs found in Yellow that are not found in either Red or Blue. One example on the site include  "Opening (Yellow)." Arrangers have been working on different songs exclusive to Yellow in the "Fixing Red/Blue Pokémon" Project." These include "Jessie and James Appear" and "Printer Error." The same can be said for the "Unofficial Pokémon Gold/Silver" Project. According to Latios, the songs "Defend Globe," "Sky Peak Final Pass," "Spacial Cliffs," "Team Charm's Theme," and "Splinda Cafe (Duet)" are all found exclusively in Pokémon Mystery Dungeon: Explorers of Sky. Most of these songs show this uniqueness by listing PMD: EoS exclusively as its game, and 2009 as its copyright year. But, there is some confusion there, even in the songs that are already on the site. Some songs list "2007-2009" as its year. The majority pick one of the years and uses that. In the end, it's not consistent and it's incredibly confusing.

My solution: list the third game in each generation as a separate game. So it would be "Pokémon Yellow" and "Pokémon Blue & Pokémon Red." Two separate categories on the site. Only songs found exclusively in "Pokémon Yellow" would be included there. Every other song goes in "Pokémon Blue & Pokémon Red." My reasoning is that Pewter City (random example) wasn't copyrighted in 1998; it was copyrighted in 1996. Listing it again under Yellow would be redundant and inaccurate. So it would belong to the former games, and not in the later game.
And, for the sake of consistency, I recommend that we list each individual duo alphabetically. Like so:

Consistency!

Pokémon Blue & Pokémon Red
Pokémon Gold & Pokémon Silver
Pokémon Ruby & Pokémon Sapphire
Pokémon Mystery Dungeon: Explorers of Darkness & Pokémon Mystery Dungeon: Explorers of Time

[close]

If something is going to be done about this, it needs to happen now. Before these projects fully complete. It will be incredibly more difficult to fix this if we wait until both projects are done.

Of course, I may be entirely wrong. If it's decided that our current system is fine, then I'm fine with that as well. But if we decide to go ahead with my plan (or choose a new, different one entirely), I will personally participate in the project. Or lead it, if necessary. Although most of the work has already been done by Latios anyway.

Comments/Questions/Concerns/Suggestions?

[Latios212]

I'll post my thoughts when I get back onto a computer.

[Maelstrom]

This has been said before, but there's an inherent problem.
Say someone has only played Yellow. They don't know that it's the same as Red/Blue, so they give up when they can't find the sheets from the game they were looking for.
Basically, while it is our goal not to get duplicates on the site, it becomes a pain for the casual user if we would split up the 3rd game from the other 2.

[SlowPokemon]

That does not happen. Brawler is completely correct. We don't list the Mario Bros. theme as being from every game it appears in, especially now as more and more Mario music is reused (see: NSMB series, the soundtracks for which are nearly identical for each, and in the case of Wii and 2, completely identical minus slightly instrumentation changes).

I've been of this exact opinion for a while, and I think I said so in that arrangement project thread, but the way we have it is inherently incorrect--the categorizations only make sense in retrospect. If something equivalent to Pokémon Z came out this year and used 70% of the music from X & Y, we wouldn't edit the existing sheets to read "X, Y, and Z." It's the same for Black 2 and White 2, which includes almost the entire Black & White soundtrack in addition to a large new soundtrack. We need to fix this.

[Tobbeh99]

My thoughts:

Separating the games into "Pokémon Red & Blue" and "Pokémon Yellow", and the same for the rest of the series:

Arguments Pro:

-Makes sense separating the songs that are exclusive to yellow, since they only appeared there and where made exclusively for Pokémon Yellow.
-Year, makes also sense with the game being released years after the first two.

Arguments against:

-The songs in Red & Blue also occurs in Yellow, so separating the game makes no sense.
-Too few songs? unnecessary? 
-As Maelstrom said, someone might only have played Pokémon yellow.

I'm pro separating them. Especially if the later black & white 2 has a great amount of exclusive song for the games, not like yellow which only have a few songs exclusive for the game.

What Maelstrom said however might be an issue in other games with less obvious connection. The pokémon games is well known among people to comes as a trio, or if you wish a duo+another game a couple years later. But let's take Zelda as an example. The Overworld theme from Link's Awakening is the same as the one in Oracle of Seasons & Oracle of Ages. In this case some person visiting the site might only have play Oracle of Seasons and might not find the sheet so easily because he didn't know that it was the same as Link's Awakening, which it is listed under.

This Zelda one is just one example of this, there are many other examples of this.

[Altissimo]

Perhaps the sheets themselves can read "Pokémon Red and Pokémon Blue Versions" (or w/e we decide to do) but the site header can read Red/Blue/Yellow, and then a separate section for Yellow called like "Pokémon Yellow (exclusive)" or something?

[mikey]

Is there something wrong with each game having its own soundtrack separately

[Brawler4Ever]

Is there something wrong with each game having its own soundtrack separately

Red and Blue share a soundtrack.

[mikey]

So they can be together... but I mean just relisting the songs that were in multiple games

[Brawler4Ever]

Perhaps the sheets themselves can read "Pokémon Red and Pokémon Blue Versions" (or w/e we decide to do) but the site header can read Red/Blue/Yellow, and then a separate section for Yellow called like "Pokémon Yellow (exclusive)" or something?

In all honesty, I would consider this the best case scenario. Pokemon Ruby and Sapphire would be near the bottom of the page, but Pokemon Emerald would be near the top. I would be completely satisfied if each third game could get its own category under the other two. The problem is that there is no precedent for this; no other section of the site has this setup. Is it even possible, from a technical standpoint?

I've also added a poll for the thread.

[Latios212]

Yes, this is the best idea. Having a sub-category within each gen would be the best, if it's not too hard for an admin to program.

Otherwise I don't have too much of a preference as long as it's consistent (i.e. BW2 having its own section right now when nothing else does bothers me). Yes, B/W2 has its own separate OST technically but most of the songs are carried over from B/W directly, and furthermore, the B/W2 soundtrack just tosses together a bunch of tracks from the third games anyway. (It may as well have been labeled B/W2/Emerald/Platinum OST). In summary, if we can't do the subcategory thing, either combine for all the gens or separate for all the gens.

Also, would it be possible for the default main site setting to be chronological? I've always found it counterintuitive, illogical, and arbitrary for games to be listed in alphabetical order within each section (seriously, why is My Pokémon Ranch at the top?). This would remove any issues with Ruby/Sapphire being separated from Emerald, etc.

[SlowPokemon]

Yes, this is the best idea. Having a sub-category within each gen would be the best, if it's not too hard for an admin to program.

Otherwise I don't have too much of a preference as long as it's consistent (i.e. BW2 having its own section right now when nothing else does bothers me). Yes, B/W2 has its own separate OST technically but most of the songs are carried over from B/W directly, and furthermore, the B/W2 soundtrack just tosses together a bunch of tracks from the third games anyway. (It may as well have been labeled B/W2/Emerald/Platinum OST). In summary, if we can't do the subcategory thing, either combine for all the gens or separate for all the gens.

Also, would it be possible for the default main site setting to be chronological? I've always found it counterintuitive, illogical, and arbitrary for games to be listed in alphabetical order within each section (seriously, why is My Pokémon Ranch at the top?). This would remove any issues with Ruby/Sapphire being separated from Emerald, etc.

In regard to Black 2 and White 2, the first three discs of its album (124 tracks) are original, with only the last disc (49 tracks) being from Emerald and Platinum. So that is a pretty good size original soundtrack.

[Latios212]

Yeah I get your point. I guess what bothers me is that it isn't a standalone soundtrack like the others, so it feels like it should be nested with the B/W one.

[mikey]

Is now a good time to bring up the ordering problem with the Zelda section

[Altissimo]

Also, would it be possible for the default main site setting to be chronological? I've always found it counterintuitive, illogical, and arbitrary for games to be listed in alphabetical order within each section (seriously, why is My Pokémon Ranch at the top?). This would remove any issues with Ruby/Sapphire being separated from Emerald, etc.

If it were me, I'd put all the main games under a header like "Main Series Games" in chronological order, then everything else in a header like "Spin-off Games" that keeps sub-series (Colosseum/XD, Mystery Dungeon, Stadium, Ranger, etc) together in chronological date by first spin-off release, finally followed by one-off spin-off games. I would even put it like this for the "Other" section of the site, with all series being kept together in alphabetical order, then all one-off games being together in alphabetical order. This is just me, though.