TWG LXXXI: Pokémon X & Y

[BlackDragonSlayer]

Good luck! x_X

[Brawler4Ever]

Rereading my accusation, I realize that some parts are difficult to find because they're hidden within chat logs. I'll post times from the individual forum posts soon.

[Brawler4Ever]

But then you used your comment that they were on your watchlist as an argument against Olimar anyway.

Mashi declares his then-previous intent to vote on latios after the third quote in his post.

not enough proof to lynch latios.

This is actually a mistake. The correct post is found here. He bolds his comment in the first chat log.

However, you are also on record saying that you had only voted for latios to get rid of the post on dudeman.

23:08 in the chat log.

And Olimar was on record with his explanation.

23:07-23:09. It's the same as a previous chat log.

Hope this helps!

[Brawler4Ever]

23:07   Mashi   I wasn't into the lynch.
23:07   Mashi   Because the game's inactive.
23:08   Mashi   And you can't find Wolves when the game is inactive.
23:08   Mashi   But I had like 10 minutes left in the Phase.
23:08   Mashi   And I didn't want Dudeman lynched anymore.

I just realized that I had made a mistake in my accusation. I thought that "the lynch" in this chat post was latios' lynch. Reading the context more, I see now that this is in relation to dudeman's lynch. But my argument still stands as it was; you accused Olimar wrongly of having a wolf partner when there was no basis for this belief.

[Brawler4Ever]

23:07   Olimar12345   Idk, you didn't seem that into a Latios lynch before I said I was going to vote, and I had just said that I didn't want to condemn someone if I didn't have to
23:07   Olimar12345   (sorry, slow typer xD )
23:07   Olimar12345   typist*
23:07   Mashi   I wasn't into the lynch.
23:07   Mashi   Because the game's inactive.
23:08   Mashi   And you can't find Wolves when the game is inactive.
23:08   Mashi   But I had like 10 minutes left in the Phase.
23:08   Mashi   And I didn't want Dudeman lynched anymore.

At the cost of looking like an idiot, I retract my previous post. This lynch was in reference to latios.

[Mashi]

Doesn't change the facts. My accusation of you resides in 3 reasons:

1) Your accusation of latios was without cause. You had declared that he was on your watchlist, but you never explained why

If you're referring to why I didn't explain my reasoning for wanting to lynch between Latios212 and maelstrom while in the chat the day of the lynch, it was because no one asked me to and because I was busy that day and frequently had to "brb" as was evident by repeatedly saying such in the chat.  It isn't that my decision to vote for him was without cause; you just weren't proactive enough to ask.  Don't come up to false conclusions for something you didn't verify yourself.  If you had asked me why I wanted to lynch between them and I didn't answer, then you could feel free to accuse me of that.

When asked about it, you changed the subject to my "Flare Gun" and it was never addressed again.

You never asked me about it.  Hard to change the subject when there was no subject to begin with.

Same goes for Maelstrom; your reasoning was never explained. But then you used your comment that they were on your watchlist as an argument against Olimar anyway. Why were they on your watchlist in the first place?

maelstrom, I just looked at the Player list and thought you two might make good Partners for people in the thread.  Your plays seems a bit under the radar to me and Latios212 had stated in the thread a couple of times that he was going to be active only to show up with a random vote and then leave.  I was originally thinking of adding Doodle as a potential lynch candidate, but for reasons explained in my suspicion list, I felt he was Human.

This was my response to maelstrom asking me only two posts away.  Read the thread.

2) Olimar's accusation of latios being of a weak suspicion does not equal it being "without intent," as you put it.

He literally stated that he voted Latios212 at the end of the Day Phase and didn't actually want him lynched.

He acknowledged that it was a weak suspicion, and that there was not enough proof to lynch latios. But, it was a start (that ended in latios' death).

People were inactive.  There's not much proof on anyone.  Weak suspicion is better than no suspicion.

You voted on dudeman for the same reason, and I did the same with Yugi. However, of all of these cases, the only one where anyone was accused was Olimar's with latios. What makes Olimar's accusation so different?

No, I did not.  I voted Dudeman to pressure him.  It's legitimately annoying me that people aren't understand this, so let me try to be lucid about this.
The primary purpose of the lynch vote is to place it on a Player you want to see lynched.  This purpose, however, has indirect consequences.  A pressure vote (I stated that my vote on Dudeman was a pressure vote, but it never needs to explicitly stated to be for pressure) is a vote made to declare that you're threatening to have the person lynched.  It's supposed to inspire fear in a Player and see how they react.  In the particular instance, I used it to instigate activity from Dudeman because I wanted to hear more from it.

Now let me explain what distancing is.  Generally, Wolves don't want to be associated with each other.  So what they sometimes do is vote for each other without putting each other in danger of being lynched.  This is why I found it suspicious that Olimar12345 wanted to place a vote on Latios212 but not have him lynched.

Pressure votes aren't feasible 10 minutes before the Phase ends.  When the Phase ends, the only thing the vote can be used for is its primary purpose; lynching someone off.

Does this make sense now?  If I was ambiguous about anything, ask me and I'll try to explain it more clearly.

3) You accusation against Olimar resided wholely in your belief that they (Olimar and latios) were wolf partners.

It didn't, that was just a theory I had that I believed supported evidence.  And I still think it's potential, frankly.  Maybe I'm wrong, but regardless, I still found Olimar12345 suspicious.

This reasoning came from Olimar's uneasiness with latios' death. By your logic, because he didn't want to go through with the lynching outright, he must not have wanted the lynching at all. Therefore, there must be a reason why that is. Your reason was that they must be wolf partners.

Not must, but I find it likely, yes.

However, you are also on record saying that you had only voted for latios to get rid of the post on dudeman. And Olimar was on record with his explanation. A last-minute vote is, I believe anyway, to be a dirty move.

A last minute lynch isn't a dirty move.  In fact, having a last minute bandwagon form at the end of a Day Phase happens so often, there's even a name for it in TWG; Chinese Fire Drill.

Olimar was uncomfortable with it because it put latios at an unfair position; he had no real time to defend himself. You also voted for latios, but you claim that you had ample reason to do so. Why was your accusation different than Olimar's?

Latios212 was inactive in the game, but apparently active on the forum.  He couldn't defend himself because he wasn't putting in any work.
I never stated that Olimar12345 didn't have ample reason for voting for Latios212.  The factors around the vote are what I was suspicious of.

[Brawler4Ever]

There is an aura that surrounds you Mashi. I've felt it since Day 1, with my debate with Nocturne. Davy and dudeman felt it with "This isn't an alliance game." Olimar felt it before he died, with the case against latios. I would call this aura an aura of convenience, but that just isn't the right word. Let me explain:

Day 1: You suggest that I go after noc, and then use that as a defense of your humanity. Granted, I take full responsibility for noc's lynch since I both instigated and basically completed it. But your part in it was neutral indifference. As a wolf, you would lose nothing in this exchange; either I die, or Nocturne dies. In either case, a wolf is not in jeopardy, and you gain the benefit of potentially killing a Special. I do have to say that this is the weakest of my arguments, but it's relevant in my final conclusion, so it is included nonetheless.

Day 2: You make a comment that latios and maelstrom are on your watchlist; potential wolves partners, because they both stay out of the spotlight. (19:31) [Thank you for answering this question, by the way. No, I never asked you explicitly, but Olimar did comment that you had not answered it. You're right, though. It doesn't amount to the same thing]
Of the two choices, Olimar picks latios as his potential target, rather than Maelstrom. (19:32)
Side note, you also make the argument that Bubbles' wolfing shows that you are human; why would you wolf your own supporter? My retort is that you, as a wolf, sacrificed Bubbles to make this exact argument.

Day 3: You declare that you would have voted for latios, regardless of Olimar's vote.
The dialogue between you and Olimar leads you to believe that Olimar is a wolf.
You then argue that even if latios isn't a wolf, Olimar is still guilty of being a wolf anyway. [Literally makes no sense to me, but I'll get to that in another post]

Everything that has happened this game has been done under your instigation, or your permission. You have had a delicate hand in every lynch, you countered the alliance, noting that it was unnecessary. When it's too late to have an alliance, it was then that you said that an alliance might have been a good idea after all. Oh well. I would call all of this convenient, but there's nothing convenient about it. It's manipulation. Of the 3 players lynched so far, I highly doubt that any of them were actually wolves. But in all of these cases, your hand can be felt. Everything has transpired according to your desire, if I may be so crude.

Maybe this is confirmation bias. You've played a stellar game, and you're an amazing player. Whether any of this is true or not, I give you the highest compliments. Your manner in answering every argument and finding a retort to every obstacle is staggering. So yes, I admit that this may be a confirmation bias. This may all be one huge mistake. But, with the way that you've been playing, I'm left with no other choice than to continue debating with you. I believe that you are a wolf, and I'm going to continue my debate against you until I'm convinced otherwise, or either of us dies. [Did not mean for that to rhyme, but whatever. I can't think of another way to say what I want to say]

[Brawler4Ever]

I'll get to the rest of your points later. I don't have time atm to write another text wall.

[Brawler4Ever]

You then argue that even if latios isn't a wolf, Olimar is still guilty of being a wolf anyway. [Literally makes no sense to me, but I'll get to that in another post]

I'm going to try to explain my reasoning as to why this makes no sense to me.

Latios and Olimar: This is my belief. I believe that they were both human, and that Olimar felt guilty about lynching latios at the last second due to a weak suspicion. Your retort is that a weak suspicion is better than no suspicion, and that Olimar is being unreasonable in his apprehension with latios' death.

Latios and Olimar: Nothing really changes from the above. Latios' actual role never played a huge part in your debate with Olimar It should be noted, however, that you would probably not have mentioned latios at all if he was your wolf partner. In fact, you, as a wolf, had no reason to even bring him up at all. So I highly doubt this scenario.

Latios and Olimar: This is your backup accusation. But this makes no sense to me. Why would Olimar, a wolf, care if he killed latios, a human? If anything, Olimar should have been happy to kill a random human, but his attitude showed that he cared very much, so much so that he discussed your actions, when he had the perfect opportunity to drop the whole thing and move on. While this scenario is possible, I find it highly unlikely.

Latios and Olimar: This is your initial accusation, and I find this just as unlikely as those above. Olimar had the choice between your two potential targets (latios and Maelstrom). He decided to investigate latios, noting that latios was active elsewhere in the forum. If Olimar and latios were partners, he had no reason to make this observation. Your accusation was that Olimar's actions seemed to be a wolf lamenting his fallen partner. Why would any wolf do this? From my limited experience, a wolf would cut their losses and continue with the game, not drudge up past mistakes and point themselves to their fallen comrade. It makes no sense to me for them to be partners.

In which of these scenarios can we find our answer? I have no idea. To me, the most likely scenario is that Olimar and latios were both human. This is how I see it, and it's open to interpretation.

[Brawler4Ever]

If you're referring to why I didn't explain my reasoning for wanting to lynch between Latios212 and maelstrom while in the chat the day of the lynch, it was because no one asked me to and because I was busy that day and frequently had to "brb" as was evident by repeatedly saying such in the chat.  It isn't that my decision to vote for him was without cause; you just weren't proactive enough to ask.  Don't come up to false conclusions for something you didn't verify yourself.  If you had asked me why I wanted to lynch between them and I didn't answer, then you could feel free to accuse me of that.

Answered this in my previous post (which came after this comment, to be clear). No, I never asked you. However, as I said before, Olimar did comment that you had not answered it. You later answered Maelstrom regarding his question, so it has been answered. I just didn't see it. Thank you.

He literally stated that he voted Latios212 at the end of the Day Phase and didn't actually want him lynched.

Not wanting someone lynched is not the same as realizing that one's suspicion is weak. If Olimar didn't want latios lynched, there were several steps that Olimar could have taken to avoid that. The issue was never about latios being lynched; it was about the manner in which he was lynched.

No, I did not.  I voted Dudeman to pressure him.  It's legitimately annoying me that people aren't understand this, so let me try to be lucid about this.
The primary purpose of the lynch vote is to place it on a Player you want to see lynched.  This purpose, however, has indirect consequences.  A pressure vote (I stated that my vote on Dudeman was a pressure vote, but it never needs to explicitly stated to be for pressure) is a vote made to declare that you're threatening to have the person lynched.  It's supposed to inspire fear in a Player and see how they react.  In the particular instance, I used it to instigate activity from Dudeman because I wanted to hear more from it.

You're right, your vote on latios and dudeman are not the same. My mistake. You were not creating a pressure vote against latios; you were going for the kill, basically. Olimar did the same. There is no way that Olimar's vote was a pressure vote, since there was no time for latios to react. But that doesn't mean that Olimar had to feel comfortable with latios' death. If Yugi had died at my vote, I would have felt the same way. There was a small suspicion, but it was better than nothing (As you said). it doesn't make the decision easy to make, though.

Now let me explain what distancing is.  Generally, Wolves don't want to be associated with each other.  So what they sometimes do is vote for each other without putting each other in danger of being lynched.  This is why I found it suspicious that Olimar12345 wanted to place a vote on Latios212 but not have him lynched.

Right. And when i first saw your argument, it made sense; Olimar had voted on latios without the intent of lynching him, so his concern after latios died was unusual. That's one main reason why I didn't get involved. However, after reading the thread more thoroughly, I realize that Olimar never had to go after you at all. There was no reason for him to care about latios' death, if it was not important to him. Obviously, it was important to him; so the question becomes why? Going off my previous post, Olimar believed that they were either both human, or both wolves. To me, them both being human makes more sense.

It didn't, that was just a theory I had that I believed supported evidence.  And I still think it's potential, frankly.  Maybe I'm wrong, but regardless, I still found Olimar12345 suspicious.

I would like to hear your reasoning as to how it would be possible for Olimar to be a wolf, and latios not. It makes no sense to me, and I would like to hear your interpretation.

A last minute lynch isn't a dirty move.  In fact, having a last minute bandwagon form at the end of a Day Phase happens so often, there's even a name for it in TWG; Chinese Fire Drill.

Is it not? I did not know that. To be fair, Olimar also did a last minute vote, and I consider him human even now. It would be hypocritical for me to accuse you of being a wolf for the same reason.

Latios212 was inactive in the game, but apparently active on the forum.  He couldn't defend himself because he wasn't putting in any work.
I never stated that Olimar12345 didn't have ample reason for voting for Latios212.  The factors around the vote are what I was suspicious of.

Okay, that makes more sense. But in light of everything that's been said, I don't see Olimar's behavior as suspicious. However, your manner of accusing him, to me, is.

And that's the last text wall that I have in me (for now). There's a great deal of ground to cover, and I felt that it would be best to get the whole picture out there.

[Jub3r7]

I'm rereading the whole thread, is there anyway to sort posts by user on this forum for a specific thread?

[Brawler4Ever]

The closest thing that I can think of is the search function. While in the thread, it will search only in the thread. But I don't know if it can be used to sort specific users' posts.

[Jub3r7]

14:45   Brawler4Ever   I believe that jub knew the consequences of his actions
HA

[Jub3r7]

I had a slight human lean on Mashi when I voted for Olimar; I didn't even see the context of my post. I was trying to vote the same person I did in the previous phase because of a wolf lean I had on him earlier.

But I just went through all but the last page and I have a definite town lean on Mashi now. I do believe Brawler is human, and that leaves 3 people.

Maelstrom is leaning human for me, I'll need to reevaluate him just to make sure. This leaves Yugi and Doodle.

[Jub3r7]

14:51   Dudeman42   So what do we pin on him?
This is why I don't try to analyze some of your posts. It's one thing to try to find a wolf and lynch them, it's another to pick a target and then figure out how you're going to explain why you voted them.

14:54   Dudeman42   Well, the evidence is that Olimar was human (probably) and Mashi was against him.
(I realize dudeman is dead, but humans can be wrong.)