TWG LXXXI: Pokémon X & Y

[Dude]

I keep reading all these posts but I'm not getting any closer to deciding who to vote for. :|

Idk where the hell Toby is so why not.

[Brawler4Ever]

So much if wrong with brawlers defense, I'll stop at the library tomorrow so that I can participate better

Still waiting for this problem with my defense. Just a friendly reminder that Day 1 ends in about 4 hours.

Votes for lynching:
Brawler4Ever: 3 (Nocturne, Olimar, and Dudeman)
Nocturne: 3 (Brawler4Ever, BDS, Jub)
Dudeman: 1 (Mashi)
Latios: 1 (FireArrow)
FireArrow: 1 (BDS)
Toby: 1 (Dude)

I believe this to be accurate. However, it's about 5 pages of text to go through, and several people have changed their votes. 

[mikey]

Why is lynching inactive players a bad tactic?
First of all, the "lol" was in reference to Mashi's comment, "I asked you first!!!" I feel that that could very well be taken out of context. I honestly don't know why you included that here.
Second, he was asking me my opinion on BDS. At the time, I saw nothing wrong with his comment. Bubbles came to the same conclusion later; wolfing fank would increase the chance of people leaning toward lynching you, Nocturne. They would see fank's wolfing as a preemptive strike to stop them from focusing on you, thus allowing you (the wolf, presumably) to get out of the spotlight. Or, if you're not a wolf, we would make you a scapegoat and call for your lynching because fank knew "something" about you that led to his suspicions.
The thing that I have against this whole scenerio is that we have no idea why fank wanted you vigi'ed, Nocturne. I believe, as I've stated before, that it was a joke, like you being Psychic. What information could he possibly have on you that would cause him to sincerely believe that you were a wolf?

I stick with what I said before. I see nothing wrong with BDS's comment. It was worded weirdly, but it was not, in my opinion, a huge concern.

lynching inactives has always been a bad tactic.  There's also no way that statement could be taken out of context because mashi asks what you think of BDS's statement and you literally said exactly that.

Nobody cares about fank's suspicion of me.  Bringing it up just seems like you trying to throw the floodlights in my direction.

Yeah so you keep saying why does everyone talk about that when you're the only one talking about fank x noc?

NocturneOfShadows, I believe that you are a wolf.

fank was wolfed after accusing you. I believe this to be a very weak premise on which to base an accusation, so I'm not going to. It's everything after that with which I have a problem.

First, you accused me of being a wolf without reason. It was just "a good vote". I asked you, then, why? You blatantly ignored me. You gave no reason for me being a wolf until Mashi posted the chat log.

Then, you made your case; I was in league with BDS. BDS was trying to push blame on you so that you could wrongfully be lynched, and the wolves gain a greater lead. You're in opposition to this (not being a wolf, of course) but since I am a "partner" with BDS, you finally have a reason for your initial suspicion. You misquoted me so that I would look like I was laughing away any concern about BDS. You insisted that the idea of lynching inactives was "a bad tactic," but never explained why. It was just important to you that there was another connection between myself and BDS.

The problem with this is that you are twisting facts to suit theories, not creating theories to suit facts. In your mind, I am a wolf, and the reasons behind this suspicion can come later. This is manipulative. This is something a wolf would do.

So, Nocturne, I believe that you are a wolf.

Another chat log

17:10      *** Brawler4Ever joined #TWG
17:10   Brawler4Ever   hey
17:11   Mashi   hello
17:11   Brawler4Ever   what dose "Mashi acting like bird ftw" mean?
17:11   Brawler4Ever   does*
17:12   Mashi   Bird is one of our TWC Players.
17:12   Mashi   And probably the best Player on NSM.
17:12   Brawler4Ever   he doesn't like alliances or something? I'm not familiar with him
17:15   Mashi   I think NocturneOfShadow was just referring to my analysis, but idk
17:15   Brawler4Ever   im going to be completely honest, I think nocturne is a wolf
17:17   Mashi   Why's that?
17:17   Brawler4Ever   several reasons
17:17   Brawler4Ever   first, he accused me without any reason
17:18   Brawler4Ever   not a big deal
17:18   Brawler4Ever   but then I asked him why
17:18   Brawler4Ever   no reply
17:18   Brawler4Ever   then you posted the chat log, and he made his case
17:18   Brawler4Ever   apparently I'm in league with BDS, according to him
17:19   Brawler4Ever   his argument against me was very manipulative, imo
17:19   Mashi   Hmm.
17:19   Mashi   You should pressure him in the topic!
17:19   Brawler4Ever   i did
17:20   Brawler4Ever   it's right above your latest post
17:20   Mashi   That felt to me more that you were defending yourself than anything.
17:20   Brawler4Ever   ah
17:20   Mashi   NocturneOfShadow probably doesn't feel threatened of being lynched or of gaining suspicion based on your remark.
17:20   Brawler4Ever   you meant post what i just said in the topic
17:20   Mashi   Yup!
17:21   Brawler4Ever   i've been planning to
17:21   Brawler4Ever   just organizing my thoughts
17:22   Brawler4Ever   i'll do it sometime tonight

[close]

1.  Accused of being a wolf without reason: false!  I had reasons!  I explained them!
2.  "You blatantly ignored me"- No.  I can't make posts like this on a phone.  It has nothing to do with ignoring you.
3.  I'm not saying you're partners with BDS, I'm saying one of you two being a wolf makes the other more likely to be a wolf instead of less likely.
4.  "You misquoted me" No, misquoting implies I altered what you said.  I did not.  To be honest you're overthinking this part.
5.  I didn't think you were a wolf for no reason, so this amazing thesis conclusion is all fluff.

bonus- These extreme overreactions of yours aren't good for your street cred, if you know what I mean.  Although the fact that Olimar agrees with me makes me a little nervous

EDIT:
lol impatient wolf

Still waiting for this problem with my defense. Just a friendly reminder that Day 1 ends in about 4 hours.

Votes for lynching:
Brawler4Ever: 3 (Nocturne, Olimar, and Dudeman)
Nocturne: 3 (Brawler4Ever, BDS, Jub)
Dudeman: 1 (Mashi)
Latios: 1 (FireArrow)
FireArrow: 1 (BDS)
Toby: 1 (Dude)

I believe this to be accurate. However, it's about 5 pages of text to go through, and several people have changed their votes. 

Dude, you are seriously going crazy.  If this sort of thing doesn't tell you guys that Brawler is acting wolfy I don't know what would

[mikey]

Might also throw in that he voted for me afterwards which when combined with the fact that none of his defense amounts to anything means it's just a revenge vote

[davy]

Nocturne

I wasn't convinced in the case made agianst you, and I would have voted Dudeman if it wasn't for your seccond to last post. I feel like you are desperately trying to shift the lynch on Brawler, while the case against him, overreacting for your vote on him, isn't that strong. Your behaviour this game reminds me of the time that we were wolves together (TWG 77) which is also a reason for me to vote you. Finally I currently feel more sure about Brawler being human than any other player (besides myself), and he has been helpful in both his posts and for keeping the game active, so yes, this vote is also to save Brawler from being lynched.


It seems like the topic doesn't like the idea of forming alliances. I applaud the amount of trust you put in our specials and I sincerely hope it doesn't backfire. For the time being however, I will still try to get my plan through.

Guardian, if you plan on or are thinking about claiming please do so no later than at the very beginning of the night phase.

[davy]

In chat

[BlackDragonSlayer]

Also in chat. If you are available, it would be helpful to show up during this time.

[davy]

Brawler, you put BDS in there twice. Actual vote count is this:

Votes for lynching:
Brawler4Ever: 3 (Nocturne, Olimar, and Dudeman)
Nocturne: 3 (Brawler4Ever, davy, Jub)
Dudeman: 1 (Mashi)
Latios: 1 (FireArrow)
FireArrow: 1 (BDS)
Toby: 1 (Dude)

[Brawler4Ever]

1.  Accused of being a wolf without reason: false!  I had reasons!  I explained them!

I meant at the time that you voted for me. All of your reasoning stemmed from A) me siding with BDS, and B) my conversation with Mashi. So I stick with what i said in my accusation against you in this regard. You wanted proof, you created proof.

2.  "You blatantly ignored me"- No.  I can't make posts like this on a phone.  It has nothing to do with ignoring you.

Alright. I can accept that.

3.  I'm not saying you're partners with BDS, I'm saying one of you two being a wolf makes the other more likely to be a wolfinstead of less likely.

BDS is actually a pretty good day 1 hit considering 2 things he said jump out as suspicious.  Plus, with the chat logs, it doesn't seem much of a stretch for them to be partners.
Oh look they agree on a bad tacticBrawler even says nothing about BDS is suspicious:

   Brawler4Ever   i personally don't see anything
   Brawler4Ever   lol
(from mashi/brawler chat log numero uno)

The only reason that BDS has even been considered a wolf is because of his one post regarding fank not being "entirely unexpected." Your initial case against me was that I was a partner with BDS in going after you. So, unlike what you just said, fank's comment from forever ago is still relevant in this discussion. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it's pivotal in your initial accusation.

4.  "You misquoted me" No, misquoting implies I altered what you said.  I did not.  To be honest you're overthinking this part.

To be fair, I probably am overthinking it. You did, as you said, not alter my quote. It just seemed strange to me that you would add the "lol" when my comment "i personally don't see anything" would have sufficed. It seemed, from my point of view, that you were making me intentionally making light of BDS's comment, so that I would be, in effect, defending him. Working in tandem with your other comment that we were partners, I believed it to be a manipulative argument, as I said in my initial accusation.

bonus- These extreme overreactions of yours aren't good for your street cred, if you know what I mean.  Although the fact that Olimar agrees with me makes me a little nervous
EDIT:
lol impatient wolfDude, you are seriously going crazy.  If this sort of thing doesn't tell you guys that Brawler is acting wolfy I don't know what would

I don't deny that I've been letting my emotions get the better of me in my last few posts (those made today, specifically). Olimar's comment has me on edge as well, simply because of his reasoning.

I need to read through these logs and the thread again, but from what I see it does look like Brawler is overreacting a bit to the whole Fank-Noc thing, so I'll place a tentative vote on him.

Brawler4Ever

(At least, until I get to sit down and form a better opinion and suspicion list, in which case I may change my vote.)

As you can see, Olimar believes that my case against you is in reference to "Fank-Noc," which it isn't. So yes, I am overreacting, and I am sorry about that.

Might also throw in that he voted for me afterwards which when combined with the fact that none of his defense amounts to anything means it's just a revenge vote

This statement is, by far, the worst defense that I have ever seen. My accusation towards you came way after you initially voted for me. It even came after you explained your accusation against me. I answered your accusation with my own reasoning. Then, after giving some thought to the apparent fallacies in your logic and the tone of your accusation, I came to believe that you were purposefully shifting blame on me so that I could be wrongfully be lynched. But if you think that this is all revenge, you are at complete liberty to believe that.


To be fair, I have much more free time right now than others. So in regard to you "ignoring me," and to Olimar reading out TWG at a later time, I'm sorry. It's really not fair of me to expect others to be as proactive with this game when they have actual stuff to do other than sit around and play games on the Internet.
I'm sorry about that.

[davy]

Dudeman, I'll give you 10 minutes to make that post that you were going to make, or I will probably switch my vote to you before going to sleep and not being on anymore untill the end of the day phase.

[Dudeman]

Okay, Mashi and Bubbles. You guys were right. I should have familiarized myself with the role list more and clarified my reasoning a bit better. Let's try posting again, and hopefully I'll make sense this time.

When it comes to TWG, posts and votes are very emotionally charged for the poster and the accused. No one wants to be made out to be the bad guy, and any implications made are going to be refuted hard and fast. Yes, there is logical reasoning that happens behind the process, but the logic is still spun to be in favor of the person who is arguing. This is normal. Players who feel victimized will give very emotional arguments, especially if they have a role that carries a lot of weight. A wolf, for example. Yes, a normal human can still get up in arms about an accusation against them, but I find the backlash will be stronger when the person accused wants to stay alive because they have part of the game they can control.

So let's look at Brawler and Noc, our two toss-up votes and most vocal players currently. BDS implies that Fank's death incriminates Noc. Brawler disagrees, but wants to lynch inactives, saying it's a "wolf-like quality." Brief discussion on Fank's intentions, then Noc votes Brawler but can't explain because he's on his phone. Jub votes Noc. Brawler questions Noc's vote. The Brawler-Mashi chat occurs. Noc shows up to say he suspects BDS but not Mashi. Alliance discussion. Noc shows up to defend his vote on Brawler: he said to lynch inactives after BDS's post about Fank's death, their agreement on inactive lynching might put them in cahoots, and in the chat Brawler didn't see anything suspicious in BDS. Brawler asks why inactive lynching is a bad tactic and contends that BDS's comment means nothing, as Fank knew nothing.

Here's where things start to get hectic: Brawler votes Noc based on two things:

• Noc's initial vote had no reasoning behind it, and
• Noc accused him of being in league with BDS.

Noc calls these reasons a "huge overreaction." It's at this point that I vote on Brawler. Now, I'll admit that the vote was based mostly on activity. Brawler was posting quite a bit and using good reasoning to attack Noc. At the (admittedly very high) risk of sounding suuuuuuper hypocritical here, I thought of this as wolfy, as that's how I did things in the last TWG. With only one game under my belt, I jumped to the conclusion that all wolves used this tactic and based my vote on that, using the word "powers" where I should have said "activity and control." Olimar casts a tentative vote Brawler saying that he thinks he is overreacting to the Fank-Noc implication. FireArrow says hyperactivity isn't very wolfy day 1. Then Mashi attacks my vote on the basis that Brawler hasn't been posting to primarily defend himself and/or attack others. Bubbles refutes my post on the powers thing. Noc promises to refute Brawler's claims in the near future. Then comes Mashi's vote on me for the powers thing again. Then comes some more discussion on the alliance. Brawler shows good interest in seeing Noc's claims against him.

Okay, here we go: Noc's defense on himself. 5 reasons here:

• Noc did explain his reasoning earlier.
• Noc was not ignoring Brawler intentionally.
• BDS and Brawler are not necessarily aligned, but one being a wolf more likely makes the other a wolf.
• Noc did not misquote Brawler because he did not alter what Brawler said.
• Reiterates that he did not vote without reason.
• Brawler's vote could be a revenge vote.

And Brawler responds to each of Noc's points in turn. Now, Brawler is taking things very logically and admitting when he makes a mistake. Honesty is good and denotes human-like qualities, but his repeated mention of the Fank-Noc implication when he repeatedly says it's not influencing him is very strange. However, Noc's reasoning is rather shallow, he makes accusations with shaky backup, and he spends most of his time defending himself and laughing at Brawler's "attempts" at defending himself. Noc is wolfy. Brawler is wolfy. Only one can be a wolf.

And I think it's NocturneOfShadow.

Yes, I'm changing my vote now that I've looked through the thread again. They may both be acting wolf-like, but Noc's wolf-like tendencies are more suspicious than Brawler's.

Also going to end by saying that I have some pretty high suspicions on Mashi as well, but I'll wait until Day 2 to look into it.



ninja'd by davy just in time

[mikey]

Lol I I'll take my day 1 as per usual
Wp brawler

[davy]

Nice work Dudeman, that was the kind of post I was looking for.

So yeah, I'll keep my vote on Nocturne.

BDS, Brawler and I were discussing the possibility of hitting two suspicious players before the fist wolfing by using the power of the vigi. Our idea was to lynch Dudeman and let the vigi kill Nocturne, but after Dudeman's most recent post, I'm not willing to kill him anymore. I do think however that we should vigi someone next night phase. We have and additional 24 hours to discuss that however, so I'm not to worried about that atm.

(I lost a bit of the chatlog because it was too long, sorry).

chatlog

00:56   BlackDragonSlayer   Having players who remain inactive throughout the game is detrimental, especially late in the game, when wolves can easily take advantage of the lack of votes to push a lynch that wouldn't normally go through.
00:56   davy   And the same isn't true for you because...?
00:56   BlackDragonSlayer   Whereas lynching a player because they're probably going to be lynched anyway is not only lazy, but also unhelpful because there are other ways to determine alignment.
00:57   BlackDragonSlayer   Especially when you insinuate that that person is possibly a human either way.
00:58   davy   Lynching inactives is also lazy, there are also other ways to determine alignment and that player is possible a human as well.
00:58   BlackDragonSlayer   But they're not going to be active either way.
00:58   davy   You can never be sure about that.
00:59   davy   And most importantly, he changed his vote to a better grounded one, so his bad lynching reason is not of present concern anyway.
01:00   BlackDragonSlayer   "You can never be sure about that." For the most part, yes.
01:00   BlackDragonSlayer   "And most importantly, he changed his vote to a better grounded one, so his bad lynching reason is not of present concern anyway." It still happened either way.
01:00      *** Brawler4Ever joined #TWG
01:00   davy   Hi there
01:00   Brawler4Ever   hey
01:01   davy   We're currently discussing BDS's vote.
01:01   Brawler4Ever   ok
01:01   Brawler4Ever   it's currently against firearrow, correct?
01:01   davy   Yes.
01:01   Brawler4Ever   i just saw your post. i miscounted lol.
01:02   davy   For the reason why he went for BDS.
01:02   Brawler4Ever   who went for BDS? FireArrow?
01:02   davy   And I'm like, it was an early day one vote, which are often not very well thought out, and he changed his vote to a better one later anyway
01:02   davy   Yes, FA
01:03   Brawler4Ever   ok I see
01:03   Brawler4Ever   I see your point, BDS
01:03   davy   "one of (BDS)'s selling points for the lynch is that he's probably going to be lynched later anyway, so if he's a human, he should be lynched now"
01:04   BlackDragonSlayer   It seemed to me like he would have kept his vote had the lynched picked up more traction, though.
01:04   BlackDragonSlayer   "one of (BDS)'s selling points for the lynch is that he's probably going to be lynched later anyway, so if he's a human, he should be lynched now" FireArrow's, actually.
01:04   Brawler4Ever   it sounds like he was trying to build up the anti-BDS bandwagon
01:04   Brawler4Ever   yeah, I got that
01:04   Brawler4Ever   nvm i don't have it
01:05   Brawler4Ever   who's saying that? I'm looking for it in the forum
01:06   davy   I just think you are overanalysing his vote, but I do understeand now why you vote for him. Thanks for explaining.
01:06   BlackDragonSlayer   Also, about the inactives thing, keep in mind the ending of TWG 65.
01:07   Brawler4Ever   i wasn't there for TWG 65. Should I look it up?
01:07   davy   However, it seems like the lynch is going to be decided between Brawler and NoS.
01:07   BlackDragonSlayer   That's one of the games I was referring to.
01:07   BlackDragonSlayer   http://forum.ninsheetmusic.org/index.php?topic=6176.msg243345#msg243345
01:07   davy   Also, about BDS thing, keep in mind the entirety of TWG 55
01:07   Brawler4Ever   lol
01:07   Brawler4Ever   so much history
01:07   BlackDragonSlayer   Basically I left Wolf alive on the chance that he'd actually go for the illogical lynch.
01:07   davy   And a bunch of other games.
01:07   Brawler4Ever   I need to catch up on my reading
01:08   davy   But back on topic, are you (BDS) comfortable with keeping distance from the NoS/Brawler debate, and if not, who would you rather have dying today?
01:09   Brawler4Ever   should I leave the room?
01:09   davy   No, please stay. The more chatters the bigger the chat party.
01:09   Brawler4Ever   i mean for this specific discussion, lol
01:09   davy   Also, BDS and I could discuss in private if we wanted to.
01:10   Brawler4Ever   i would prefer that, for BDS's sake
01:10   BlackDragonSlayer   50/50 between them now. I think some of Nocturne's later actions are a bit strange.
01:10   davy   And the 50 for Brawler because overreaction?
01:11   davy   I don't mind you (Brawler) contributing to the discussion either.
01:11   Brawler4Ever   it's not fair if nocturne isn't here to defend himself
01:11   Brawler4Ever   any comment I make will invariably be trying to make BDS come to my side
01:12   davy   That's his fault, not yours.
01:12   BlackDragonSlayer   Mostly because I could potentially see him being a wolf in this situation also, as I mention in an earlier chat (with Mashi and Bubbles).
01:12   Brawler4Ever   I don't believe that that creates a healthy community
01:12   Brawler4Ever   btw, i posted a new counter to nocturne in the forum
01:12   BlackDragonSlayer   I.e. He hasn't done anything to expressly make me believe he's human.
01:12   davy   Brawler, we're killing eachother, and fighting for our lives, and you think this is a healthy community?
01:12   Brawler4Ever   have i done anything to make me seem wolfish, other than defend myself?
01:13   BlackDragonSlayer   Not expressly wolfish, either.
01:13   Brawler4Ever   honor is the only thing that separates us from the wolves
01:13   Brawler4Ever   or some such noble bullcrap whatever
01:13   davy   Nope, number and knowledge are the only things that sperates us from the wolves
01:13   davy   I often lie as a human.
01:13   Brawler4Ever   my argument with nocturne came after he accused me
01:14   Brawler4Ever   his accusation had absolutely no basis
01:14   Brawler4Ever   everything came AFTER Mashi posted our chat log
01:14   Brawler4Ever   with which I am perfectly fine
01:14   Brawler4Ever   but NoS had no reason to suspect me of anything, unless he also suspects you, BDS
01:14   Brawler4Ever   but he expressly denies that now
01:15   davy   So BDS, if Brawler doesn't seem either wolfish or human, but Nocturne's later actions are strange, why is it a 50/50 instead of leading towards Noct?
01:15   BlackDragonSlayer   I recall him saying that he did suspect me.
01:15   Brawler4Ever   his only argument now is that I'm overreacting (which, to be honest, I am)
01:15   Brawler4Ever   who suspected you? me?
01:15   Brawler4Ever   of course I did
01:15   BlackDragonSlayer   Nocturne.
01:15   Brawler4Ever   you made a very strange comment
01:15   Brawler4Ever   oh
01:16   Brawler4Ever   pretty sure everybody suspected you, BDS xD
01:16   davy   Brawler, do you have the mood swing curse? (see TWG 73)
01:16   Brawler4Ever   nah
01:16   Brawler4Ever   olimar's comment ticked me off
01:17   Brawler4Ever   im not bipolar or anything
01:17   BlackDragonSlayer   "if Brawler doesn't seem either wolfish or human, but Nocturne's later actions are strange, why is it a 50/50 instead of leading towards Noct?" Nocturne's earlier actions weren't (or rather, earlier actions involving Nocturne). There's always the possibility that Nocturne is just reacting strangely to the situation.
01:17   davy   Ok, I understeand.
01:17   Brawler4Ever   nocturne's actions we're what?
01:17   Brawler4Ever   wolfish?
01:17   davy   Is there any other player that you would consider lynching (besides FA)?
01:18   davy   were strange
01:18   Brawler4Ever   ok
01:18   Brawler4Ever   if it weren't for NoS, I'd be voting for Toby with Dude
01:19   Brawler4Ever   oh, bird is a member of this forum
01:19   Brawler4Ever   i did not know that
01:19   BlackDragonSlayer   At this point, aside from the people who have already been mentioned, I don't feel strongly suspicious about anybody in particular. However, I think Mashi is human at this point.
01:19   Brawler4Ever   sorry, tangent
01:19   davy   Why do you think that?
01:19   davy   Mashi is the person I'm always least certain of his humanity
01:19   davy   (together with bird and verm of course)
01:20   BlackDragonSlayer   I was reading some older games on LLF, and Mashi was talking similarly in a few of those games towards me as he was in this game.
01:20   Brawler4Ever   hahaha! i have no history! I am a closed book! muahahaha!
01:20   davy   Towards you? In private, in the chat or in the topic?
01:20   davy   You have a history of reviving the first wolf victim as soon as possible.
01:20   BlackDragonSlayer   Just the way he was going about asking questions/interrogating me.  In the chat. Bubbles was there also.
01:20   Brawler4Ever   ...
01:20   Brawler4Ever   that was one time...
01:21   davy   Especially if you are scared to death of being wolf'd.
01:21   BlackDragonSlayer   Olimar might've been there also, or he might have left at that time.
01:21   Brawler4Ever   exactly my thoughts
01:21   davy   Your thoughts about what?
01:21   Brawler4Ever   was he a wolf in those games?
01:21   Brawler4Ever   or a human? mashi, I mean?
01:21   davy   What games?
01:21   Brawler4Ever   BDS's games
01:21   BlackDragonSlayer   Brawler is starting to confuse me a bit.
01:22   davy   The games on LLF you mentioned.
01:22   Brawler4Ever   yes, davy and I were on a tangent
01:22   davy   was mashi a human there?
01:22   Brawler4Ever   im trying to get us out of it.
01:22   BlackDragonSlayer   He was human in those games, and I think I might've been a wolf in one of them...? I'd have to go back and read through them again to cite specific examples.
01:23   Brawler4Ever   i don't think that's necessary, honestly
01:23   Brawler4Ever   i don't trust mashi
01:23   davy   What do you guys think about a Dudeman lynch?
01:23   Brawler4Ever   why dudeman?
01:24   BlackDragonSlayer   Yeah... why Dudeman...?
01:24   Brawler4Ever   because of his comment against me?
01:24   davy   I was thinking about voting for him before NoS recent posts.
01:24   davy   Yes
01:24   davy   It was pretty bandwagoning, and he didn't seem to care that you had a vote against you already.
01:24   Brawler4Ever   "Brawler has been posting left and right to defend himself or attack someone, and I'm interpreting it as an anxiousness to use whatever powers he has and soon." -Dudeman
01:25   davy   this post:http://forum.ninsheetmusic.org/index.php?topic=7230.msg296540#msg296540
01:25   Brawler4Ever   a few others commented and destroyed his reasoning
01:25   Brawler4Ever   bubbles and mashi, specifically
01:25   Brawler4Ever   yeah
01:25   Brawler4Ever   the problem that I have with mashi is that he keeps coming to my defense
01:26   davy   That doesn't change the fact that he has a vote on you.
01:26   Brawler4Ever   he does?
01:26   davy   Actually, with his reasoning being destroyed, that should make him even more suspicious.
01:26   BlackDragonSlayer   Hmm. That Dudeman post could possibly be a misinterpretation of intention, though I'd have to read more into the context to be certain (as in, it would be helpful if he were here right now).
01:26   davy   dudeman I mean.
01:26   Brawler4Ever   last i saw, he was voting for dudeman
01:26   davy   not mashi
01:27   Brawler4Ever   yeah, dudeman is against me
01:27   Brawler4Ever   everything would be way more helpful if everybody was here
01:27   Brawler4Ever   and way more confusing
01:27   Brawler4Ever   i can see dudeman joining NoS's bandwagon against me
01:27   Brawler4Ever   intentionally, as a wolf
01:29   Brawler4Ever   you think that the guardian should come out immediately, davy?
01:29   davy   BlackDragonSlayer, are you reading into the context atm?
01:30   davy   Yes I still do.
01:30   BlackDragonSlayer   Not right now.
01:30   BlackDragonSlayer   I have to go soon; I'll probably do it later.
01:30   davy   Could you do that? I'd like to have an agreement before I go to sleep.
01:30   davy   The reading I mean.
01:31   BlackDragonSlayer   How many voted did Brawler have before Dudeman voted for him?
01:31   davy   1
01:31   davy   And Olimar voted soon thereafter.
01:31   Brawler4Ever   just nocturne
01:31   Brawler4Ever   yeah
01:31   davy   hey look, dudeman is posting!
01:32   davy   I wonder what he'll say.
01:32   BlackDragonSlayer   Nocturne/Dudeman/Olimar wolves trying to start a bandwagon?
01:32   davy   Not all of them obviously.
01:32   Brawler4Ever   i doubt olimar is a wolf
01:33   davy   I do think there is a wolf among them however.
01:33   BlackDragonSlayer   Hm. You seem to share a few opinions with Mashi...
01:33   Brawler4Ever   based solely on his latest post
01:33   davy   Olimar I also think is the least likeliest to be a wolf.
01:33   Brawler4Ever   i think he's just busy
01:33   BlackDragonSlayer   From Mashi, referring to Dudeman: "I dislike this post.  Your first post of substance is latching onto NocturneOfShadow's suspicion and for non-concrete reasoning."
01:33   Brawler4Ever   true
01:34   Brawler4Ever   not something a wolf would openly say to another wolf
01:34   Brawler4Ever   unless he was under really deep cover
01:34   davy   Indeed I do share a few opinions with Mashi.
01:36   Brawler4Ever   mashi is very good at this game, from what I can tell
01:36   davy   So, does either or both of you any bit interested in lynching dudeman?
01:37   Brawler4Ever   can't busy defending myself against NoS, who I am still fairly certain is a wolf.
01:37   Brawler4Ever   what's your opinion, davy?
01:37   Brawler4Ever   do you believe that he's a wolf?
01:37   davy   I'm not sure, but atm to me he's the likeliest player to be a wolf
01:37   Brawler4Ever   he, being NoS
01:37   davy   followed closely by dudeman.
01:38   BlackDragonSlayer   I'd consider it, depending on what he does or does not say.
01:38   Brawler4Ever   he's had it out for me since the beginning
01:38   davy   I'm actually considering lynching dudeman and leaving NoS for the vigi.
01:38   Brawler4Ever   none of his arguments come before Mashi's chat log
01:38   Brawler4Ever   why not vice versa?
01:39   davy   Nocturne's early behaviour doesn't really concern me. He starts all his games like that.
01:39   Brawler4Ever   does he? ok then.
01:39   Brawler4Ever   maybe history isn't so bad....
01:40   davy   It's a little too coincedental that you are also the player that he decides to put an actually clarified vote on.
01:40   BlackDragonSlayer   "I'm actually considering lynching dudeman and leaving NoS for the vigi." Hmm, that might be a good idea, actually.
01:40   davy   Our great overlord Mashi has arrived at NSM.
01:41   Brawler4Ever   act inconspicuous
01:41   Brawler4Ever   he must know nothing
01:41   Brawler4Ever   jk
01:41   davy   Why do you think that is a good idea BDS, and more importantly, a better one than lynching either of them?
01:42   BlackDragonSlayer   because it gets two suspicious players out of the way and is actually a fairly substantial d1 lynch compared to what is usually done
01:43   davy   01:38   Brawler4Ever   why not vice versa? - Regarding lynching and vigi'ing?
01:45   BlackDragonSlayer   Why would it matter, if two suspicious players die either way?
01:45   Brawler4Ever   because it's how they die
01:45   Brawler4Ever   if NoS is lynched, they won't know if he was wolved or vigi'ed
01:45   Brawler4Ever   unless we make a public request?
01:45   davy   Because I think the vigi can be swayed for a NoS vigi more easily than a Dudeman vigi
01:46   BlackDragonSlayer   Why?
01:46   davy   Of course, we would make it a public request
01:46   Brawler4Ever   what are the chances of him vigi'ing me instead?
01:46   Brawler4Ever   assuming me and NoS both survive, somehow
01:46   davy   Roughly the same of him being NoS or Olimar, I think.
01:46   Brawler4Ever   jk
01:46   Brawler4Ever   it's not important, just a funny thought
01:47   Brawler4Ever   yeah, there's not much on Dudeman atm
01:47   davy   NoS has been in the spotlight the entire game, has a case going against him that is less easily reverted and is generally a player that raises suspicion by every player.
01:48   davy   as for why I think the vigi would be  more likely to go for NoS.
01:48   Brawler4Ever   "and is generally a player that raises suspicion by every player." that could technically be used in his defense
01:48   Brawler4Ever   which he already has done
01:49   davy   How could that be used in his defence?
01:49   Brawler4Ever   since he's always suspicious, the fact that he is suspicious now is part of his personality

[close]

[davy]

And with that, I'm going to sleep. Happy lynching everyone.

[Maelstrom]

I was going to vote for NoS with a little bit of hesitation, but Dudeman's wall of text may have made me more certain.
Each and every time, Brawler has refuted all of NoS's claims with pure logic and admitting possible mistakes. Is this kind of wolfish? Yes. But that logic still stands, and much better than NoS's. I don't know how to begin with NoS. He's used improper logic, and contradicted himself multiple times. He claimed that "he explained his reasoning" when he voted for brawler, while, in fact, he did not in the least. NoS has just been putting up flawed argument after flawed argument. I can't tell if this is just how he plays or not, but I don't like it one bit. And so, without further ado,
Nocturne of Shadow

edit: Ninja'd 3 times