TWG 79: CIRCLE NINE Post Game

[Mashi]

Humans Win!



Okay, so.

The game was a complete disaster and I'm sorry about that.  In person, people usually would discuss and debate a lot when determining Teams and Wolves could usually determine who was Oberon and who was Merlin more easily than in this game.  I honestly was not expecting Humans to win three Overall Successes without any conversation whatsoever.  It seems that Avalon doesn't work out well on a forum format, or perhaps I would need to add some sort of twist for next time.

Sorry that the game was such a bust.  I was hoping it would be a good one given the excitement for it, but it seems it was a belying sign.

[Dude]

You should have circled nineeeee

[BlackDragonSlayer]

[MaestroUGC]

I think that the big problem is that there was no real incentive to rotate the mission groups. We happened to find a winning formula right off the bat so why not use the same team? I think this could work, but a few things should be changed.

1) A set roster made by the host, but hidden from the players. Each phase the host would say "X is the mission leader" and it's his responsibility to assemble a team. He can do so democratically or otherwise, but he has to have the final say.
2) Shutting out private discussion really hurt any sort of communications and lead to inactivity. If the same team kept winning, then what is there to discuss other then "let's try that again?" Had things turned out differently, then maybe it would've been better.

I think this could merit another crack, but it needs some serious revisions:

1) I think a three phase system should be in place, each 24 hours long. Phase A would be choosing the mission group; Phase B success/fail; Phase C normal voting phase where a player is eliminated.
2) PMs should be free and open again, the wolves can still have their secrets, and it allows people to play more alliances, driving the game forward if nothing bad ever happens.
3) The win conditions should be classic, and I think Merlin should be cut out of this new dynamic or at least changed to a regular seer during Phase B (but he can only seer those on the mission team.)
4) Combine that with a forced rotation system, I think this could work really well with any sized group.

Just my thoughts.

[Bubbles]

lol maybe i just really wanted to stab bds ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Communications were cut off because I realized Merlin could just pm all the humans and tell them who the wolves were. If he did that in the thread it would reveal his role and let the wolves guess correctly.

I didn't even fully understand the rules until around Night 2 or something so yeah not my best game

[Latios212]

So there were a number of major changes from the game that I'm used to that resulted in this.

First and foremost, in all the dozens of games I've played I've played with my friends, not a single one I recall simply ended after three successful missions. I think the problem here was the fact that multiple fail votes were required to fail missions. It's nearly impossible to fail a mission without the help of Oberon. There needs to be a way for the wolves to fail a mission and have a decent chance of staying hidden. This can be remedied by having missions fail with fewer fail votes. I don't want to seem like I'm structuring the game here, but the second mission commonly fails after the first one passes, evening out the teams and giving people to work logic on, but also not enough information for anyone to become certain of anything.

Part of the reason we just got a good team, stuck with it, and won is because of the voting system. Popular vote makes it hard for a wolf to get on a mission besides being chosen randomly - one of the reasons that missions can fail in Avalon is that a wolf captain suggests a mission with a wolf on it, and everyone says "sure why not" because it seems random. This is less likely to happen with the voting system because the wolves seem to have a less powerful say. A crucial part of Avalon is that the players themselves, good or bad, decide the missions. I didn't really object to this at first, but upon closer examination I really think this feature should be maintained. I thought a captain-centric system would be inefficient, but something along the lines of Maestro's idea of phases, in which a captain suggests a mission and everyone up/downvotes it, could work, although be lengthy. Players would really need to be active.

Also when I play there are more power roles with prior knowledge so finger-pointing (both grounded and random) is common, but there was nothing to base any claims off of in this game, since the only people with any knowledge are wolves and Merlin, who... obviously can't reveal they know anything.

One thing I do agree with, though, no PMs.

Just my two cents.

But thank you Mashi, for trying. I'm not very knowledgeable about TWG, but I have a lot of experience with Avalon. Perhaps we could have a chat if you ever want to try Avalon again? I might wanna try taking a stab at hosting...

[BlackDragonSlayer]

lol maybe i just really wanted to stab bds ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[close]

[mikey]

I... Didn't even realize dude was playing

[Mashi]

Yeah, Latios212, I would love for you to offer your own input and maybe try hosting your own game.  I think you're right about a lot of things that went wrong; making an Overall Failure occur with fewer Failure votes and having Teams composed differently from majority vote are probably the two most important factors, I imagine.

I'm interested in hearing about alternative Roles that can be added in the game and would appreciate if you could post here or send me a PM about them, as I'm curious in how to flavour the games.  Thank you in advance!

[Sqwerrels]

I believe the role of The Lady would spice things up.

In the original avalon, The Lady would be the person just before the first person who starts off voting for missions. Starting on Phase 2, she would get the chance to seer one person and then dictate what she saw. The person she chooses to be seered would be publicly announced, but the Lady is the only one who knows the true side. The person who was seered will then become the new Lady. With this option, Oberon would be able to participate more, and people will be able to accuse the Lady of lying or actually getting a lead somewhere.

Because we dont particularly have a set order of people to choose from, perhaps we could do something with the person who received the fewest number of votes (KitB if there's a tie), and then continue off the chain as Lady does her seering.
In addition, if we continue to add in the role of the Miller, then we have to restrict the two wolves for PMing each other only.

[Latios212]

Yeah, Latios212, I would love for you to offer your own input and maybe try hosting your own game.  I think you're right about a lot of things that went wrong; making an Overall Failure occur with fewer Failure votes and having Teams composed differently from majority vote are probably the two most important factors, I imagine.

I'm interested in hearing about alternative Roles that can be added in the game and would appreciate if you could post here or send me a PM about them, as I'm curious in how to flavour the games.  Thank you in advance!

Will do! This is essentially the game I always play in real life, with almost nothing changed, because in my experience it's pretty balanced. Without further ado, here we go:

Spoiler

Avalon: Take Two

Wolves
- Mordred - Only Wolf that Merlin does not know of. If Humans pass three missions, makes one guess towards which Player is Merlin.  If the guess is correct, Wolves win the game and Humans lose.
- Morgana
- Bad Lancelot
- Oberon - On the Wolf Team, but doesn't know the Wolves. Wolves don't know who he is, either.

Humans
- Merlin - Is told the identities of Morgana, Bad Lancelot, and Oberon, but not which is which.  If his identity is guessed by Mordred at endgame, Wolves win and Humans lose.
- Percival - Is told the identities of Merlin and Morgana, but not which is which.
- Guinevere - Is told the identities of Good Lancelot and Bad Lancelot, but not which is which.
- Good Lancelot
- Townie
- Townie

Human Victory Condition: Have three missions succeed and have Merlin's identity kept secret at endgame.
Wolf Victory Condition: Fail three missions or guess Merlin's identity after three missions succeed.

Game flow: Players will take turns being captain in a predetermined randomized order. The game will be comprised of (24-hour?) phases as follows:
- Current captain proposes a mission of X Players (depending on which mission).
- Everyone votes for or against this captain's proposed mission.
- If the majority of voters did not approve of the proposed mission, the next person becomes captain (If this happens four times, the next captain's mission will automatically go through). If the majority of voters approves, Night Phase starts. Each player on the proposed mission PMs the host whether to pass or fail the mission. It is then revealed how many people passed/failed it.

Day 1: Team of 3
Night 1: One fail vote required for mission to fail
Day 2: Team of 4
Night 2: One fail vote required for mission to fail
Day 3: Team of 4
Night 3: One fail vote required for mission to fail
Day 4: Team of 5
Night 4: Two fail votes required for mission to fail
Day 5: Team of 5
Night 5: One fail vote required for mission to fail

Seer mechanic: The Player (Human or Wolf) who was initially last in line to be captain is the first Lady (so essentially, randomly chosen). After Night 2, they will publicly announce who they want to seer. They will receive a PM from the host containing the color of the chosen player. The Player they seered will then become the next Lady and will be able to use the seering power after the following night, and so on.

NO PMing BETWEEN PLAYERS ALLOWED.

[close]

The main issue I foresee is people taking a while to decide on a mission (24 hours for proposing and another 24 for voting may feel dragged out) but IF the players are active it shouldn't be a problem.

Everything I said about the Lady is pretty much incorporating what Sqwerrels said. Not sure how selection of first Lady would work though; random works but your idea might too. Idk.

I haven't tried working the Miller or other TWG mechanics into this really, so idk.

[mikey]

we could make a separate board for the resistance

[Mashi]

I considered that NocturneOfShadow, but I feel like it would be better to just keep Avalon as a short term thing.  Or somehow repurpose the subboard to be dual purpose.  If we had a separate subforum, chances are that one or the other would be inactive, and we already have struggles with inactivity with just one.