Debate Topic

[FireArrow]

I'm not gonna comment on the theory statement as Kefka and Maestro covered it much better than I could. I did look up your book however and:

"Lewis, an Anglican, intended to describe the Christian common ground. In Mere Christianity, he aims at avoiding controversies to explain fundamental teachings of Christianity, for the sake of those basically educated as well as the intellectuals of his generation, for whom the jargon of formal Christian theology did not retain its original meaning."
-wiki

I don't see how this book can be used as proof of gods existence in the first place nor do I see how you can claim someone's philosophy about theology is even remotely comparable to scientific research.

[Ruto]

Pfft even for originality, the Bible gets a 2/10. If you've ever read Plato's dialogues, you'll see that there's a similar creation myth described in Timaeus. I still think the Greeks had the best creation myths as long as there's Zeus involved.

I think science is perfectly good at explaining why things happen! Science explained how AND why the planets moved, didn't it? I recall Cicero and even the Bible inaccurately describing how the sun and planets moved. Let's also throw in the geocentric theory which can now be proven to be totally wrong.

I was really lucky to have a discussion with Waddle about Greek philosophy back in Finland last week hahaha. We talked about another dialogue though.

[Altissimo]

gravity is a theory

lern2scince

[Pianist Da Sootopolis]

The story of the flood, the ark, and a snake disrupting paradise are also found in one of my favorite novels, the Epic of Gilgamesh, dated around 2700 BC, and considered to be the world's first work of great literature. It attempts to explain creation just as most stories did of the time, and did so by god-ifying, for lack of a better word, a Sumerian king by the name of Gilgamesh. Give it a read, it's a lovely work.

[FireArrow]

There's a few things I wanted to reply to in the rant thread and this was the closest topic for it I guess (Honestly it was just as home there than anywhere else. Using the religion, politics, and debate thread as prisoner islands for touchy subjects to protect sensitive people is... meh.)

So let's start by assuming free will exists. Homosexuality is then a concept that you personally agree with and one makes it a part of one's essence, everything you include in your essence is up to your own decisions to include them. One is also able to change that part of one if at some point one doesn't agree with it anymore. One is the moral agent and every decision they make is up to nothing/nobody but one themselves. (=indeterminism, cause and effect are outside the moral agent) The problem with indeterminism is the relationship between reasons and moral decisions, does one really choose their decisions?

No, it's not a choice. If you ever chose your sexuality then you're bi and in denial. We've found genes that increase the odds of someone being gay and it could potential be affects by environmental factors before puberty. An individual has no choice in any of that.

Fun fact, people that disagree with same sex relationships can still be 100% gay. They just tend to marry the opposite sex anyways and be all like "I'm resisting the temptations of satan" or whatever. I mean, humans are pretty amazing at lying to themselves - but that doesn't make them not gay, it just makes them miserable and/or confused.

That first sentence should have stood out. "But that part about the accepting gay ppl doesnt maek sense! Religion doesnt do thattt!" bion, they do. In fact, no religion advocates hating or discriminating others. You only really hear about this because 1) ppl who understand the basic principles of their religion have the decency to not verbally violate and shit on those of opposing beliefs, and 2) the media only shows us the shit b/c ratings and the sort.

Conclusion: is homosexuality "wrong?" You decide, and keep it to yourself. Also wtf does "wrong" even mean, and to what standards are you holding it to?

I know that you're religious. I also think you do a very good job of respecting other people and treating them equally. Where you're wrong is assuming that all religious people are like you. The news media isn't wrong when telling stories about it - that shit exists and is quite common. please don't pretend the problems doesn't exist/down play it to protect your religion just because you in particular aren't an asshole. A much better response than nocturne's "religious people are super accepting and you guys are just dramatic" would be "those people are dicks and don't represent what Christianity stands for." Now you're defending your beliefs without telling people that their problems don't exist.

[Jub3r7]

I can confirm. I tried to be attracted to women. If I had a choice of being attracted to women or guys I would have chosen women.

[Ruto]

Fun fact, people that disagree with same sex relationships can still be 100% gay. They just tend to marry the opposite sex anyways and be all like "I'm resisting the temptations of satan" or whatever. I mean, humans are pretty amazing at lying to themselves - but that doesn't make them not gay, it just makes them miserable and/or confused.

Not going to bother with everything else but LOL

It really sounds like you said that those (self)-haters who are labeling homosexuality as a sin, are actually disgusted with themselves and how they're "sinning"* themselves? I don't think most people think of themselves as walking, sinning...beings that are condemned to XYZ for simply existing.

video not for kiddies

[close]

*stayin' in the closet

[FireArrow]

I can't tell if you're disagreeing with me or not...

It really sounds like you said that those (self)-haters who are labeling homosexuality as a sin, are actually disgusted with themselves and how they're "sinning"* themselves? I don't think most people think of themselves as walking, sinning...beings that are condemned to XYZ for simply existing.

Uh, no. I'm saying that people who disagree with "the gay lifestyle" aren't immune to being gay themselves since waddle was trying to say that your opinion on the matter affects your sexuality, which isn't true. Homophobes who do turn out to be gay just tend to keep quiet about it or make ridiculous claims that they've chosen to be straight despite being attracted to men or something.

[Olimar12345]

The news media isn't wrong when telling stories about it - that shit exists and is quite common. please don't pretend the problems doesn't exist/down play it to protect your religion just because you in particular aren't an asshole. A much better response than nocturne's "religious people are super accepting and you guys are just dramatic" would be "those people are dicks and don't represent what Christianity stands for." Now you're defending your beliefs without telling people that their problems don't exist.

Very well put! Like you said, there are crazy people who do crazy things for "religious" causes. That shit never gets old apparently. I think I said what I said in that way because, while shit is constantly happening and problems do exist (which we should not ignore), I personally try not to dwell on the negative things more than I absolutely need to. I (not not unlike others) live a very stressful life and can't afford to be constantly thinking about all of the shit going on-no one can. By no means am I "playing it down," or "disregarding" shit just because religion is good whoopie!

And by no means do the terrible actions of individuals or small organizations define entire religious groups. I'm sure we all are educated enough to know about the reprocussions of that kind of mentality.

Oh man idk if I'm still on track wtf

[Ruto]

I can't tell if you're disagreeing with me or not...

Uh, no. I'm saying that people who disagree with "the gay lifestyle" aren't immune to being gay themselves since waddle was trying to say that your opinion on the matter affects your sexuality, which isn't true. Homophobes who do turn out to be gay just tend to keep quiet about it or make ridiculous claims that they've chosen to be straight despite being attracted to men or something.

Heheh I didn't read the whole thing. But then I recall the clip and what that gay converter said. While watching it, I thought "this guy is in denial." That's all, not really trying to make any argument here.

[FireArrow]

I personally try not to dwell on the negative things more than I absolutely need to. I (not not unlike others) live a very stressful life and can't afford to be constantly thinking about all of the shit going on-no one can. By no means am I "playing it down," or "disregarding" shit just because religion is good whoopie!

Yeah, sorry for misunderstanding your point. You said some interesting things that got me thinking, but my short term memory sucks and I immediately forgot what I wanted to say (I need more sleep...)

Heheh I didn't read the whole thing. But then I recall the clip and what that gay converter said. While watching it, I thought "this guy is in denial." That's all, not really trying to make any argument here.

Nah just making sure. I worded it pretty poorly anyways. On the subject of people like that though, while I don't feel like digging up the story, I remember something about some guy who opened up a correction facility as compensation for his same sex attractions. He made a public apology and closed down his business when he came to terms with it.

[Waddle Bro]

bringing this here too, gonna write the replies on homosexuality and dude(/-man) thing on some other post
Ah shit Olimar I never meant say anything like you'd apparently be homophobic D: Terribly sorry if I came across attacking!!

Not all beliefs are knowledge, so we should be ready to change the way we think if we receive knowledge that shows how you are or can be wrong.

This part I get.

I'm glad because it's a vital for my point!!

If there's even a chance you can be wrong, you have no right to force your ways on anyone else.

Logically, this can make sense from the standpoint of not wanting to sound like a hypocrite, but runs the risk of being way too fucking broad. Also, this is a double-edged sword, and your following sentence contradicts that by forcing your beliefs on how to behave upon others:

It was more about the importance of having justified opinions through knowledge. If one's beliefs have potential to be harmful to anyone else, one can't treat them as if they are knowledge, since one doesn't have it. Nobody else has to carry the responsibility that comes with one's beliefs/decisions. Also Olimar, a key thing to note is how knowledge can also start from understanding how one's beliefs have no basis. We need to be able to question our beliefs, suspect them and strive for knowledge, so we can either confirm or invalidate our beliefs. The problem is that if one is not admitting this when voicing one's beliefs(see theistic religions), they can't be based on knowledge and therefore their beliefs are unjustified and shouldn't be forced on others.

That includes even claiming how being gay is immoral out loud, instead you should show acceptance or not give a fuck whether or not someone's gay.

So now I'm saying being gay is wrong? I guess so, in the form of playing devils advocate. If you're confused, re-read this part from the perspective of a religious person (one who's beliefs are ones who forbid same-sex relations) toward someone of opposing beliefs:

Again I'm terribly sorry if I gave the impression of assuming you're homophobic!!! I was speaking about "you" as people in general, but it's completely my mistake for coming across wrong!! I've been trying to transition to using "one" instead of "you" but I forget about it sometimes, sorry Olimar
fuck these english pronouns

instead you should show acceptance or not give a fuck whether or not someone's gay.

You claim I'm forcing my beliefs on others, but aren't one's natural rights(f.e. in this case freedom of identity and self-expression) completely justified, as long as they don't interfere with other natural rights and other people's rights? What unjustified belief could possibly justify taking away those rights? Equality can't happen in a society that ignores the intrinsic value of the people, natural rights and natural freedom of the people.

If there's even a chance you can be wrong, you have no right to force your ways on anyone else. That includes even claiming how being gay is immoral out loud, instead you should show acceptance or not give a fuck whether or not someone's gay. Expressing beliefs that consider someone else inferior to one is never justified, those are based on nothing but preconceptions.

That first sentence should have stood out. "But that part about the accepting gay ppl doesnt maek sense! Religion doesnt do thattt!" bion, they do. In fact, no religion advocates hating or discriminating others. You only really hear about this because 1) ppl who understand the basic principles of their religion have the decency to not verbally violate and shit on those of opposing beliefs, and 2) the media only shows us the shit b/c ratings and the sort.

I think I already covered well how if you are able to admit to your belief being wrong and able to accept different views, you have justified beliefs and you should be able to express them to others. It's about having those justified beliefs, not about analyzing all your beliefs in thesis-level depth and having to come to a rational conclusion about them. If you don't have the knowledge, you can still justify your beliefs by admitting how it's possible you can be wrong. I hope you understand where I'm coming from!! I know people believe in and relate to the same things differently, that's why critical thinking when explaining your subjective view to others is necessary!!

Conclusion: is homosexuality "wrong?" You decide, and keep it to yourself. Also wtf does "wrong" even mean, and to what standards are you holding it to?

completely agree with your conclusion :] tho you should still thrive to find out if your beliefs are correct or not, otherwise you're building your essence on quicksand
also in my posts I was talking about wrong in epistemological sense and ethically wrong(=something shouldn't be, fe. in theistic religions it's defined by authority, but does the authority know what wrong means?) shoutouts https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open-question_argument
finally I just want to say how previously it's my fault for not making a detailed enough of a post, I shouldn't assume you instantly know anything I say, meaning I should do a better job at explaining myself!! sorry fam

[Olimar12345]

Ah shit Olimar I never meant say anything like you'd apparently be homophobic D: Terribly sorry if I came across attacking!!

wait wat

The problem is that if one is not admitting this when voicing one's beliefs(see theistic religions), they can't be based on knowledge and therefore their beliefs are unjustified and shouldn't be forced on others.

Justifying beliefs in this manner is silly, and forcing them upon others is even sillier. A "belief" is centered around an acceptance that something is true or that something exists, not so much the actual process of providing cold hard evidence, that's why you're BELIEVING it to be the truth, lol. The "justification" comes from within. The "forcing" comes from the either unintelligent or ignorant individuals and is a problem, I agree. The forcing of religion onto an unwanting individual is not only a fruitless endeavor, but actually causes more harm than healing. So tying this all back together; People should never force their beliefs upon others, but rather invite willing individuals to experience their joy if they are curious or so desire. I feel that the picking apart for cold hard evidence is more of a defense mechanism, often as a result of a negative experience.

That includes even claiming how being gay is immoral out loud, instead you should show acceptance or not give a fuck whether or not someone's gay.

So now I'm saying being gay is wrong? I guess so, in the form of playing devils advocate. If you're confused, re-read this part from the perspective of a religious person (one who's beliefs are ones who forbid same-sex relations) toward someone of opposing beliefs:

Again I'm terribly sorry if I gave the impression of assuming you're homophobic!!! I was speaking about "you" as people in general, but it's completely my mistake for coming across wrong!! I've been trying to transition to using "one" instead of "you" but I forget about it sometimes, sorry Olimar
fuck these english pronouns

Whoops, that was actually a clarification error on my end! I wrote that under the "you" as a "one," coming across as you intended it to. That "so now I'm saying..." part from me was me contradicting myself from earlier within my own post, to solidify my message there. Sorry for the confusion!

You claim I'm forcing my beliefs on others, but aren't one's natural rights(f.e. in this case freedom of identity and self-expression) completely justified, as long as they don't interfere with other natural rights and other people's rights? What unjustified belief could possibly justify taking away those rights? Equality can't happen in a society that ignores the intrinsic value of the people, natural rights and natural freedom of the people.

You believe that these are natural rights, and that a society should abide by them for equality's sake. I didn't say these were bad things (they aren't), but merely that these are beliefs.

completely agree with your conclusion :] tho you should still thrive to find out if your beliefs are correct or not, otherwise you're building your essence on quicksand

Glad you agree, but see this:

Justifying beliefs in this manner is silly, and forcing them upon others is even sillier. A "belief" is centered around an acceptance that something is true or that something exists, not so much the actual process of providing cold hard evidence, that's why you're BELIEVING it to be the truth, lol. The "justification" comes from within. The "forcing" comes from the either unintelligent or ignorant individuals and is a problem, I agree. The forcing of religion onto an unwanting individual is not only a fruitless endeavor, but actually causes more harm than healing. So tying this all back together; People should never force their beliefs upon others, but rather invite willing individuals to experience their joy if they are curious or so desire. I feel that the picking apart for cold hard evidence is more of a defense mechanism, often as a result of a negative experience.

brb changing 1000's of years of history by proving religion is true lmao

[E. Gadd Industries]

I thought of a good debate! Was the US justified in dropping the atomic bombs on Hiroshima & Nagasaki back in WWII? Keep things clean & considerate, and cite your sources! I'm interested in hearing your rationale!

[Dude]

is this for a school project because if it is you should figure it out yourself