Mt. Moon Time Signatures

[Jompa]

The only thing I hate more than a double accidental is a C flat, E sharp, etc. I get that they're necessary but they're also pretty annoying

So tell me then, how would you notate the major seventh step in a song that's in F#-major or minor? Would you write it as F natural? Now that would be annoying!

Double accidentals are a totally normal part of music notation, and if anyone tells you to change it, they better have a damn better reason than "I think it's annoying".
Same goes for accidentals on steps that just aren't commonly accidentalized. You are supposed to be able to read it just as fluently as everything else. If someone thinks it's hard to read, that's not the arrangers fault.

[Jompa]

So, I was fixing up Mt. Moon from Pokémon Red/Blue, and it bothered me that in the last half of the song, the melody didn't match the pulses of the time signature at all. So I started messing with it.

At the beginning (before the first time change), there is no section in which an 8/8 grouping isn't more accurate to the feel than a standard 4/4 pulse. So I applied that to the weird later sections, and these weird eighth note groupings seem to fit the patterns in the left hand very nicely anyway. I'm 90% sure that they're all correct.

The fact that no one has mentioned this yet is kinda weird:
You are wrong about the time and pulse.
It's just plain old 4/4 with 2+2+2+2 groupings of eights. It's as I said in the other thread: Syncopated rhythms doesn't affect the pulse and time signature AT ALL. I'm not saying that 3+3+2 grouping isn't allowed, but that grouping doesn't apply to this song. The pulse in the song is 4/4.

So the arrangement on site is more accurate, though in the second half of the song, where it starts to change the time signatures, it doesn't keep up with all the changes - not that it matters too much, as they all add up in the end.

[Zunawe]

I'm not saying that 3+3+2 grouping isn't allowed, but that grouping doesn't apply to this song. The pulse in the song is 4/4.

In all the sections currently set as 8/8, every single dotted quarter, quarter, and eighth note pattern fits perfectly within 3+3+2. I understand that you shouldn't change to 8/8 because of a syncopated rhythm, but there's absolutely nothing there to say it's syncopated in the first place.

not that it matters too much, as they all add up in the end.

I'm gonna strongly oppose you there. Just because the number of eighth notes happens to add to a multiple of 8 by that point does not mean it's acceptable to write it in 4/4 just because it's nicer.

[Jompa]

In all the sections currently set as 8/8, every single dotted quarter, quarter, and eighth note pattern fits perfectly within 3+3+2. I understand that you shouldn't change to 8/8 because of a syncopated rhythm, but there's absolutely nothing there to say it's syncopated in the first place.

What I meant is; the song, Mt. Moon, is in 4/4 (eights grouped 2+2+2+2). Your arrangement is wrong because you use 3+3+2. Yes, there is a reoccurring rhythmic figure that bases itself on 3+3+2, but there's no reason for that to affect the time signature.
If everyone arranged like you did here there wouldn't be anything called syncopations in existence.

Just because the number of eighth notes happens to add to a multiple of 8 by that point does not mean it's acceptable to write it in 4/4 just because it's nicer.

Yes, I agree, that's why I complained about that arranger not keeping up with the time changes. I was just saying that it was still a more accurate arrangement as that was the only place that arranger didn't have the right time sig.

[Zunawe]

I guess what I'm asking for is evidence that the song is in 4/4. I don't hear it that way. To me, it doesn't sound syncopated, it sounds like odd beats. I'm not trying to match actual rhythms to time signatures, I'm saying that the rhythms are consistent with, and provide evidence for, a pulse more consistent with 8/8 than 4/4. In other words, I would have conducted the song in 3 before I would have in 4 because it feels right.

[Jompa]

Tell me, is that how you hear that phantom hourglass song too? in odd beats?
----------------------
Anyone else wanna give their opinion?

[Zunawe]

The PH song is different. Certain notes sound like they should be pickups, so I wasn't sure. I was testing time sigs that played around with that, and 8/8 was one of the first ones to come to mind. This song consistently sounds like this to me though.

[Jompa]

in other words, you hear the PH song in odd beats. yes or no?

[Zunawe]

Nothing concretely, no. Definitely not in the melody.

[Jompa]

Certain notes sound like they should be pickups, so I wasn't sure. I was testing time sigs that played around with that, and 8/8 was one of the first ones to come to mind.

^This strongly suggests that you didn't hear it as 4/4, and c'mon; there is just no way it's anything other than 4/4 (yes, I mean 2+2+2+2 groupings).

[Olimar12345]

In other words, I would have conducted the song in 3 before I would have in 4 because it feels right.

I disagree, I'd much rather conduct it in four, mostly because I hear it more as syncopation rather than a hybrid meter (along the lines of what Jompa said).

[Zunawe]

^This strongly suggests that you didn't hear it as 4/4, and c'mon; there is just no way it's anything other than 4/4 (yes, I mean 2+2+2+2 groupings).

It was less about the time signature and more about the placement of the notes. If you look at Linebeck's Theme, one or two of those little references start on different beats. That threw me off, so I started looking at it maybe a little too closely. But this isn't about that song because the scenarios aren't the same.

I disagree, I'd much rather conduct it in four, mostly because I hear it more as syncopation rather than a hybrid meter (along the lines of what Jompa said).

Maybe I'm partial to odd meters. I hear three beats.

[Jompa]

It was less about the time signature and more about the placement of the notes.

I'm afraid I think that's what the problem is with this one. It seems to me that you're using the rhythm of the left hand figure for the time signature rather than the real underlying pulse. I don't think you're hearing it differently. My theory is that you just got confused with that kind of rhythm because I think you've gone down that wrong path before when you've arranged (as I understood from what you wrote about how you experienced the time sig in that PH song in the other thread) and it's just become a habit for you to start determining key signatures based on some consistent underlying rhythm the song may have.

[Zunawe]

I got the ideas for this song from the melody line. I've never considered a song being in a different time sig simply because of a dotted quarter rhythm. This is the first song I've ever even considered being in 8/8. That phantom hourglass song is awkward because the melody is purposefully written a few eighths shifted from the song it was derived from. At the moment, it confused me, but everything there works fine in 4/4. Odd meters are cool to me. That's the only reason I might be swayed to 8/8, but it all fits and makes sense to me.

[Olimar12345]

I got the ideas for this song from the melody line. I've never considered a song being in a different time sig simply because of a dotted quarter rhythm. This is the first song I've ever even considered being in 8/8.

Hopefully this example will help you see what Jompa and I (mostly Jompa) are talking about.

If we take a popular piano piece, like say Joplin's "The Entertainer" and transcribe it in this fashion, it could potentially look like this:

[The Entertainer 1]

When in reality, it was written like this:

[The Entertainer 2]

See the difference between the syncopation and the time signatures?