TWG Announcement: Short Holiday Break

[Olimar12345]

That would have been funnier if you had used a real attack..

Man, well this is disappointing, I just finished my last jury and am now done with the semester=have time to play twgs :c

[Thiannon]

You're in law school, Olimar?

[Olimar12345]

Click.

[Mashi]

no it didnt fail!!!


I feel that if Wolves make it to a situation where their numbers are equal during a Day Phase, the game should continue.  It's being implied that a series of KitBs would occur, but why would the Wolves be dumb enough to make their identities apparent?  I don't think using simple probability would cut it either; by that late in the game, Players are biased enough to make educated lynches (hopefully, haha) and decrease the chances of lynching a Wolf.  If the Wolves want to take a chance, they can go ahead though.  Perhaps more than we care to admit, part of TWG is the luck aspect and I feel that the given scenario of KitBs would be part of that luck aspect, not of skill.

The only time I would see equal numbers being a problem would be if it were one Wolf against one Human.  And to be honest, I'm not too sure how to resolve that properly.  I don't necessarily agree with the current rule; if during the previous Night Phase, there were two Wolves and two Humans remaining, and the Wolves wolfed a Human and the Humans vigi'd a Wolf, how would things be done?  Should the game have ended the last Day Phase, despite the Human's capabilities to make the numbers equal?
And what if there's one Wolf and three Humans in the Night Phase, the Wolf wolfs and the Humans vigi another Human?
I think that these types of situations are probably the only time the current rule would be useful; whether it's objective is beyond me to say, however.  If I were Host, I would probably end the game in a tie, however unpopular that opinion and anticlimactic that event may be!

But as Fiver's been reiterating, these situations are not common and induce certain behaviours (in this case, more missed wolfings).  I agree that games should be balanced with the rules in mind, but that's exactly why I feel this rule in particular should be removed.  I think it complicates what would otherwise not be too problematic.  The presence of something does affect behaviours; Wolves won't wolf a Seer if a Guardian is in the game and Wolves will more likely aim for a Night Phase ending with the current rule in place.


fank009, in regard to your suggestions, I don't think irrelevant votes could fairly be considered to be removed, as part of TWG is for Players to vote based on their own opinions, whether they're rational, irrelevant, frivolous, or whatever!

Allowing for no lynches could potentially work (though, other complications may arise with both Humans and Wolves having major control over numbers during Day and Night Phases), but I would be hesitant to implement such a rule because I feel that it isn't necessarily an idea that's fitting for TWG.  It works for Mafia fine, but I feel that TWG and Mafia are rather distinct.  It's like comparing Final Fantasy to Pokemon; both of them are turn based RPGs with similar stats and levels and other RPG Mechanics, but they're still very different games.  If someone wants to add a no lynch Mechanic for a game of his/hers, I wouldn't mind, but I would be a bit iffy on making it a permanent thing, if you understand what I mean.

[mikey]

It was super effective?

Olimar Call for Family IS a real move...

In the TCG.

[Olimar12345]

Oh wow it is. Well played, Nocturne. Well played.

[mikey]

I clicked the link and now I feel indebted to wikipedia 

[BlackDragonSlayer]

It was super effective?

Olimar Call for Family IS a real move...

In the TCG.

I've always hoped that they'd make it a real move in the game (with the effect being something akin to Beat Up)...

[Bird]

You're right, I can't prove causality here, but my assumption passes the smell test, doesn't it? And isn't it easier to change the rule (a unilateral TWC decision) than to try to revamp how we balance games (which would require a better understanding of balance from every prospective host)?

You could always look at some of the games where the wolves have won and analyze whether they still would have with this new rule change. I feel like you'll have a difficult time finding any games where the outcome would be different, though. My "hosts should balance better" suggestion was more a rhetorical strategy than an actual statement; I think we've had pretty well-balanced games in the past despite the inequality in wolf/human wins.

I think it complicates what would otherwise not be too problematic.

This is a point I didn't have a chance to bring up in my previous post. The system we're currently using is much simpler and more intuitive. It's easier for a new player to wrap his head around "wolves win when their numbers are greater than or equal to the humans," than "wolves win when their numbers are greater than or equal to the humans at the beginning of a night phase." It's a trivial difference, but it could cause a problem if it's not widely recognized; a wolf could reveal himself in the thread, thinking the game is over when it's actually not. I actually think this has happened in the past on LLF, although I can't recall the game.

We've seen more deliberately missed wolfings since the advent of this rule than I've seen draws in my TWG history.

I also think we're exaggerating these missed wolfings. Let's not forget that the missed wolfing in the most recent game was completely accidental. The only time I can think of people missing a wolfing to manipulate the numbers in an NSM game was this one. Correct me if I'm wrong on this, I don't have a good memory for TWGs.

That said, I really don't care that much! It's an extremely minor rule that will pretty much never alter the outcome of a game. If eliminating an extremely rare strategically missed wolfing is thought to be more valuable than a system that prevents even rarer draws and makes slightly more sense intuitively, I don't have much of a problem changing the rules. Especially since we'll still let the ultimate win conditions be determined by the host. I'm interested in seeing what verm has to say on the issue.

We've seen some awfully complex games, and I don't think this is quite as straightforward as you think. Do we assume all wolves will be present to vote for humans on subsequent day phases, and that all wolfing PMs will be submitted? axem's Bomb game ended pretty anticlimactically on a bunch of these types of technicalities. I know I care more about TWG as a spectator sport than anyone alive you, but the point stands.

It's an issue worth talking about, but I don't know what can be done about it from a TWC perspective. Hopefully issues like these are brought up in the hosting sign-up/game sign-up threads, or at least early in the actual game. But I don't think we're going to start looking over every game's win conditions once it's submitted in a host sign-up thread.

[vermilionvermin]

I'm siding with Bird on this one.  Other than the existence of a vigi or charismatic human late in the game, both of which are pretty rare, I can't think of a situation in which the wolves could get their numbers equal to the number of humans in the game and for me to think that the humans deserved to win the game.  They certainly don't if it requires a KitB, let alone several.

If I'm understanding the point Thiannon and Mashi are trying to make about the missed wolfings, it's a problem that's not unique to the current system!

Suppose we adopt the new system and you're going into a night phase with three humans and two wolves.  Assuming the wolves don't want to win by going for two consecutive KitBs (which seems to be the crux of a different argument that they make) then it makes way more sense for the wolves to skip a wolfing.  There's just a different set of circumstances in which it makes sense to miss wolfings.

[Yugi]

 i have an idea

lets introduce mercs

[vermilionvermin]

Another argument against the proposed win condition changes is that manhunts become unfeasible.  In any game with greater than 5 players, the humans have a better than 50% chance of winning with random lynches.

[Nakah]

Tomorrow!

[Toby]

Today!