TWG LXII: This Game Is Encouraging When It Comes To Activity

[BlackDragonSlayer]

• The fact that fank009 randomly shared with me the PMs he exchanged with BDS. He apparently hadn't sent PMs to any other players the whole game, and his offer to show me these PMs came out of the blue.

I have a feeling that one of Liggy/Greg/Thiannon (most likely Greg) might be wolfed, and Bird/FireArrow might try to push a lynch on you or me, or one of us might be wolfed, and they try to push a lynch on the other one or Liggy/Greg/Thiannon (assuming at least one of them is, in fact, a wolf).

If fank sent you this exact PM (quoting it with the time), you'll notice it has a slight time discrepancy from the one I just posted, which I talked about in chat. Also, unless the whole conversation was faked for the purposes of sending to you (at least a day in advance, depending on when fank sent you the PMs), there'd be no reason to even talk about any of the stuff we did, let alone send a PM to myself... or even bother keeping the PMs in the first place, when fank (assuming he is my wolf partner) already had them.

Plus, I see no reason fank would've sent you the PMs in the first place if you didn't know about them and they weren't helping him/us any (and neither did I know that he sent them to you)!!


For reference, the whole conversation, so that EVERYBODY knows what we said:

Spoiler

First PM:

you know, this is very interesting...
we have possible teams showing up,

Me/you (?) -(what gregs noticed)
FA/Bird (might be missing something here...
leaving liggy/greg/thia

of course any one of the above could be partners with everyone but nakah (the negative thing about that no wolfing, we have no "wolf clears", Im fairly certain that the 3 victims are human though... so this wolfing will be very telling, but is it me? or a FA/Bird pairing seems too obvious? maybe im over thinking it, but the way FA is playing it, (ok, I AM overthinking it :/)

We'll just have to wait and see what happens this night phase...
but this might be the game.

My response (with time discrepancy):

I have a feeling that one of Liggy/Greg/Thiannon (most likely Greg) might be wolfed, and Bird/FireArrow might try to push a lynch on you or me, or one of us might be wolfed, and they try to push a lynch on the other one or Liggy/Greg/Thiannon (assuming at least one of them is, in fact, a wolf).

Fank's response:

atm, my biggest q is, why isnt greg dead yet?
also, I've thought of a reason for bird to make the wolfing :/
numbers

My response (saved in outbox, so there shouldn't be any time discrepancy):

Either:
A: So that Greg can support him (since he's "leaning human" on Bird's list, but only "Unsure" on mine).
B: So that suspicion (and bullets) can be diverted to Greg.

[close]

[Bird]

I guess I never really explained my take on the PMs.

I don't think humans typically start PMing each other for no real reason. Fank's explanation for this was that BDS was his only human lean. But I really don't think a lot of people just up and do that, especially without explanation! He doesn't even begin by explaining the reason of the PM.

What I think is more likely is that they wanted to "invalidate" them being wolf partners by pretending to be human when exchanging PMs. Like faking a chatlog together, except through PM.

[BlackDragonSlayer]

I guess I never really explained my take on the PMs.

I don't think humans typically start PMing each other for no real reason. Fank's explanation for this was that BDS was his only human lean. But I really don't think a lot of people just up and do that, especially without explanation! He doesn't even begin by explaining the reason of the PM.

What I think is more likely is that they wanted to "invalidate" them being wolf partners by pretending to be human when exchanging PMs. Like faking a chatlog together, except through PM.

I don't think that there was "no reason" exactly, especially since fank and I communicated previously in the chat (I forgot whether somebody posted the  chatlog or not; I don't exactly remember if there was anybody else there), and generally (at least, at that point) had an agreeance of opinions (but conflicting with yours, obviously).

And, also, we'd be real fools not to anticipate your reaction, given your CONFLICTING VIEW.

[fank009]

Changing my pretend vote to BlackDragonSlayer for now, under the idea of he and fank009 being the wolves.

This explains would explain two weird things between the two of them:

• The fact that fank009 randomly shared with me the PMs he exchanged with BDS. He apparently hadn't sent PMs to any other players the whole game, and his offer to show me these PMs came out of the blue.
• It also explains why fank was arguing Thiannon/Greg rather than the infinitely more compatible Thiannon/BDS.

...
If it werent for that extension, I would really yolo, and shoot those bullets so far up... yeah lets not go there.


:/, lets use the favourite line of this game, It would be Stupid, to do what I did as a wolf...

I told you the reason as to why I showed you those PMS, Because I had doubts and wanted them answered.

Here's the whole PM log...

Spoiler

21:55:17: <fank009> hi bird
21:56:35: <bird> aw, you just missed greg!
21:56:39: <bird> He thinks you and BDS are wolves
21:59:40: <bird> sooo
21:59:41: <bird> whats up
22:00:43: <fank009> xD
22:01:08: <fank009> even with thia withering like a cornered puppy?
22:01:34: <fank009> Im going to need to read BDS again,
22:01:41: <fank009> because his is the same deal as me :/
22:01:56: <fank009> but yeah, You dug the grave... Can I push thia in?
22:02:02: <fank009> you do know that...
22:02:09: <fank009> there are 2 wolves alive now...
22:02:11: <fank009> right?
22:02:21: <fank009> (well according to me, there are two wolves alive.
22:03:29: <fank009> :/ I need to make a big post....
22:03:40: <fank009> hand on...
22:03:43: <fank009> *hang
22:03:46: <fank009> not need,
22:03:47: <fank009> want.
22:05:11: <fank009> we have this dumbtelling piece...
22:05:13: <fank009> http://www.ninsheetm.us/smf/index.php?topic=5956.msg232087#msg232087
22:05:53: <fank009> (maybe we are over looking something :/)
22:07:08: <fank009> why is it with you, bird,
22:07:18: <fank009> I always feel Like Im talking to myself
22:09:12: <fank009> ...
22:09:20: <fank009> dammit...
22:09:26: <fank009> I just realised something....
22:09:31: <fank009> everything goes back to fank...
22:09:37: <fank009> Maestro's plan,
22:09:40: <fank009> Greg's plan...
22:09:51: <fank009> (d1 that is)
22:09:57: <fank009> All had influence from me...
22:14:03: <bird> Sorry!
22:14:08: <bird> I'm responding to stupid bds
22:14:41: <bird> You're the keystone, fank!
22:14:52: <bird> the piece that holds the whole puzzle together
22:15:13: <bird> I don't know if I'd necessarily call that dumbtelling.
22:15:30: <bird> It was never stated whether people the bomb was passed to could throw it again
22:15:41: <bird> Plus there was a famous game with bombs on LLF where you died as soon as the bomb hit you.
22:16:03: <fank009> this whole game has been iffy, and with different peoples interpretations ...
22:16:15: <fank009> anything is open for intepretation...
22:25:03: <bird> Okay posted
22:25:09: <bird> Are you still thinking Greg/Thiannon for the wolves?
22:28:19: <fank009> ... you mentioned yesterday...
22:28:31: <fank009> about greg and thia "complimenting" each other...
22:29:49: <bird> Really?
22:30:15: <bird> Are you sure I said they were complimenting each other?
22:30:25: <fank009> paraphrasing...
22:30:34: <fank009> lemme find the log...
22:33:03: <fank009> 02:37:45: <bird> I think there's been a lot of weird miscommunication between them.
22:33:40: <bird> oh right
22:34:06: <bird> While lots of players were saying that Greg was human due to his willingness to hold onto the bomb
22:34:13: <bird> Fiver proposed that it might be a bluff
22:34:19: <bird> Which Greg said didn't make any sense.
22:34:20: <bird> Let me find the posts:
22:34:46: <bird> 1: http://www.ninsheetm.us/smf/index.php?topic=5956.msg231939#msg231939
22:34:59: <bird> 2: http://www.ninsheetm.us/smf/index.php?topic=5956.msg231960#msg231960
22:35:09: <bird> 3: http://www.ninsheetm.us/smf/index.php?topic=5956.msg231971#msg231971
22:35:25: <bird> 4: http://www.ninsheetm.us/smf/index.php?topic=5956.msg232007#msg232007
22:35:39: <bird> And that's it I think
22:38:12: <bird> I just don't know if they'd engage in that kind of behavior if they were wolf partners
22:46:09: <fank009> I have some PMS from BDS last night, beginning of the phase if you want to have a look at them
22:48:42: <fank009> hmmm
22:48:47: <fank009> an exceprt...
22:49:04: <fank009> from your reply to BDS...
22:49:05: <fank009> "or divide opinions enough to not have anybody killed, thus ending the game." Did you overlook this post where I stressed how essential it was that we all vote for one player? A division of opinions existed long before my "BDS/Thiannon are wolves" post.
22:49:19: <fank009> isnt this EXACTLY, what the wolves are doing???
22:49:35: <fank009> http://pastebin.com/ccTups6U
22:55:10: <bird> Isn't what exactly what the wolves are doing?
22:56:03: <bird> Oh yeah, the who we wolf thing is a big joke.
22:56:19: <bird> I'm sure my big campaign against Thiannon has made that more easy to believe.
22:57:25: <fank009> ...
22:57:38: <fank009> that wasnt what I was pointing out
22:57:52: <fank009> 19 Nov 2013 01:10:22 GMT <fank009> I'll say it again, why would FA/bird keep you over liggy??? 19 Nov 2013 01:10:32 GMT <Greg> I don't think they want to change that. Liggy probably wasn't going to be lynched anyway, unless everyone in the game suddenly went full retard.
22:58:32: <bird> Wait, sorry, can we back up for a sec?
22:58:39: <bird> What were you referring to with this:
22:58:40: <bird> (4:49:19 PM) fank009: isnt this EXACTLY, what the wolves are doing???
22:58:52: <fank009> ^yeah
22:59:29: <fank009> the fact that wolves want division of opinion
23:00:08: <bird> I would wager the wolves are going to try harder to get somebody else lynched than just make the lynch not happen
23:00:20: <fank009> ...
23:00:23: <fank009> they dont need to
23:00:35: <bird> Yeah, but it makes them look human while helping them win, rather than just helping them win.
23:03:32: <fank009> Wolves need All humans on board to lose...
23:03:44: <fank009> Why, didnt they take liggy???
23:04:09: <fank009> I feel like Im missing an important chat log...
23:04:50: <fank009> :/
23:05:00: <fank009> I need to sort through and read through everything again...
23:05:08: <fank009> (and again and again)
23:05:08: <bird> What about Liggy?
23:05:13: <bird> They did take him!!
23:05:20: <fank009> ...
23:05:40: <fank009> (liggy's dead, they didnt take/bring him to must lynch)
23:05:53: <bird> oh
23:06:08: <fank009> remember...
23:06:20: <fank009> wolves know what the thing was...
23:06:24: <fank009> (mechanic)
23:06:56: <bird> I wonder how Waddle designed the effect this phase.
23:07:10: <bird> Cuz if there were 5 players, 7 bullets to kill would be game over for the humans (assuming two alive wolves)
23:07:19: <fank009> yeah
23:07:25: <fank009> (considering...
23:07:35: <fank009> optimal deaths would be 4 alive today :/
23:09:20: <fank009> ...
23:09:22: <fank009> xD
23:09:27: <fank009> thia's slipping
23:09:29: <fank009> I can feel it.
23:10:06: <fank009> This probably won't placate the Thiannon/BDS shippers, but whatever.
23:10:08: <fank009> "This probably won't placate the Thiannon/BDS shippers, but whatever."
23:10:33: <fank009> ...
23:10:45: <fank009> since when was there hostility towards Thia/BDS???
23:12:12: <bird> oh wow good catch
23:12:14: <bird> can you link that post
23:12:37: <fank009> http://www.ninsheetm.us/smf/index.php?topic=5956.msg232665#msg232665
23:12:40: <fank009> and then,
23:13:07: <fank009> we have BDS's post next...
23:13:19: <fank009> (which you drilled into...)
23:14:04: <bird> its really not that funny!
23:14:15: <fank009> ...
23:14:22: <fank009> maybe it is???
23:14:22: <bird> it was such a stupid argument but i'm actually glad i incorporated it into my post
23:14:36: <bird> i think it would be hilarious if the most important lynch came down to whether or not a comment was funny
23:14:57: <fank009> You can see whats happening right?
23:15:03: <fank009> Thia, tied BDS with him...
23:15:11: <fank009> wouldnt BDS notice it,
23:15:19: <fank009> and laugh at the fact he tried to tie him in?
23:16:02: <bird> Laugh because he's a wolf or laugh because he's human?
23:16:25: <fank009> (your right... it could be either or...)
23:16:51: <fank009> what it does,
23:17:04: <fank009> is that it cancels any partnership the two might have
23:17:06: <fank009> (imo)
23:17:24: <bird> eh
23:17:29: <fank009> (and imo, only cements a Thia/Greg wolf team)
23:17:46: <fank009> regardless of what team they are on,
23:17:55: <fank009> they are not on the same team due to BDS's reaction...
23:18:02: <bird> Well, good luck convincing BDS to vote thiannon
23:18:38: <fank009> (we might be able to catch the partner )
23:18:43: <fank009> today...
23:19:04: <bird> I'll be trying to convince Greg to vote Thiannon as well.
23:19:12: <bird> If he does then all our problems are over! for this phase
23:19:25: <bird> And it'll provide insight into their potential partnership
23:19:28: <fank009> I like how you say for this phase...
23:19:33: <fank009> because...
23:19:42: <fank009> Someone can always feign humanity...
23:19:45: <bird> Because you'll still suspect Greg while I still suspect BDS.
23:19:59: <fank009> ...
23:20:05: <fank009> that is an idea...
23:20:12: <fank009> let them gambit between the deaths...
23:20:16: <fank009> (and watch FA die xD
23:20:18: <bird> Man, I'm going to feel so bad if BDS is human. I'm kind of being mean to him on the assumption he's being intentionally obtuse with me.
23:20:26: <bird> noooo fa
23:20:55: <fank009> I would be suprised... If anyone besides FA dies next phase...
23:21:15: <bird> Why would FA die?
23:21:27: <bird> I feel like I'm the only one who really thinks he's human
23:21:44: <fank009> because,
23:21:48: <fank009> we are on two tangents???
23:22:02: <bird> I think they'd probably go for you tbh
23:22:18: <fank009> regardless of who the wolf is?
23:22:20: <bird> Nobody suspects you besides Greg, making you an unlikely lynch
23:22:29: <fank009> nowadays...
23:22:38: <fank009> \(what did I say about lynches...
23:22:46: <fank009> you dont need a lynch, you just need numbers)
23:23:08: <fank009> (heck I've been cleared so many different ways it isnt funny :/)
23:23:16: <bird> It's a shame that we can't just not lynch this phase.
23:23:21: <fank009> yeah
23:23:26: <fank009> wait...
23:23:38: <fank009> we can no lynch in games at NSM???!!!??
23:23:43: <bird> Uhh
23:23:53: <bird> I don't... think so?
23:23:55: <bird> Maybe?
23:24:00: <fank009> (xD)
23:24:06: <bird> best twc
23:24:14: <fank009> (remind me to add a no lynch clause...)

Unimportant Sidetrack

23:24:22: <fank009> speaking about no lynch clauses...
23:24:35: <fank009> I have a somewhat "wierd" idea for a game...
23:24:44: <bird> hit me with it
23:24:48: <fank009> basically, its a combination of a team game...
23:24:53: <fank009> there would be 3 teams...
23:25:02: <fank009> (randomly picked from a pool...)
23:25:17: <fank009> each team would have there own strengths...
23:25:22: <fank009> Im thinking 15 players,
23:25:27: <fank009> 3 teams of 5...
23:25:31: <fank009> In each team though,
23:25:34: <fank009> there is a wolf...
23:25:58: <fank009> humans win in their team only, and when all the wolves die...
23:26:07: <fank009> Wolves will be randed a role
23:26:13: <fank009> and will have that power for the game.
23:26:39: <fank009> (anything else im missing...)
23:26:45: <fank009> Wolves have a night kill
23:26:54: <fank009> each team May have a vig/night kill
23:27:24: <fank009> Each team will have a special power/item
23:28:03: <fank009> Im thinking no cardflips...
23:28:27: <fank009> to add to the stratergy
23:28:50: <fank009> atm I have 4 sets of possible teams I could use...
23:29:06: <fank009> (theme is somewhat generic, "fanks dream/nightmare"
23:29:22: <fank009> that way I could take from different universes, instead of sticking just to one...
23:30:05: <bird> Sounds cool, but it's hard to wrap my head around without seeing all the roles
23:30:17: <bird> Multi-team games are pretty trendy right now though.
23:30:33: <fank009> basically, atm possible teams that are in the game,
23:30:45: <fank009> Mystery Inc... (scooby-doo and the gang)
23:30:57: <fank009> Team avatar (avatar, legend of aang)
23:31:04: <bird> oh man i love it so far
23:31:12: <fank009> Sailor scouts (sailor moon) (...)
23:31:25: <fank009> The planeteers (captain planet)
23:31:34: <fank009> bascially Im using my knowledge of shows,
23:31:47: <fank009> trying to think up of good 5 team combinaitions...
23:32:02: <fank009> (could go power rangers, but I dont know enough for powers, and balancing...)
23:32:58: <fank009> xD
23:33:01: <bird> Well I think that would definitely do pretty well in the polls. People are suckers for popular TV shows!
23:33:12: <bird> If you can squeeze pokemon/doctor who in in some way, it'd win no matter what.
23:33:21: <fank009> hmmm...
23:33:36: <fank009> hah
23:33:37: <fank009> xD
23:33:43: <fank009> you've given me an idea...
23:33:57: <fank009> Gen 1-5 starter pokemon for each type xD
23:34:09: <bird> yeah!
23:34:50: <fank009> Dr who. is a no.
23:34:59: <fank009> I dont know the universe enough
23:36:06: <fank009> TMNT? (TMNT)
23:36:16: <fank009> I could try make that a team...
23:36:26: <fank009> But I dont know what the special power would be... :/
23:37:04: <fank009> hmmm...
23:37:08: <fank009> maybe that might work...
23:37:23: <fank009> the only difficulty with pokemon,
23:37:36: <fank009> is what would the special power be...
23:38:22: <fank009> hmm...
23:38:25: <fank009> that is an idea...
23:38:51: <fank009> how about this for a team...
23:39:10: <fank009> Red's team (pokemon gold/silver/heartgold/heartsilver)
23:39:20: <bird> That could work
23:39:31: <fank009> special power being exchange...
23:39:48: <fank009> anyway...
23:39:53: <fank009> enough with that distratction
23:39:57: <fank009> back to the task at hand

[close]

23:40:18: <fank009> ...
23:40:18: <fank009> :/
23:40:24: <fank009> why is it,
23:40:29: <fank009> Every time I read thia OR greg...
23:40:35: <fank009> I envision them as a team...
23:41:23: <fank009> http://www.ninsheetm.us/smf/index.php?topic=5956.msg232058#msg232058
23:41:57: <fank009> (I somewhat forgot why wolves couldnt kill liggy n2...
23:42:01: <fank009> that wolfsbane...)
23:43:14: <fank009> ...
23:43:18: <fank009> More "dumb telling"
23:43:54: <fank009> from thia
23:43:55: <fank009> I'm fine with bombing Liggy. He's really tough to read as a wolf, and if he's human and doesn't die, I trust him to make a good call with the item. I think people are worrying too much about the wolves getting the item.
23:44:31: <fank009> so, we have "dumbtelling" in the sense of forgetting about wolfsbane...
23:44:48: <fank009> but we do have a wolf tell in the sense of... "I think people are worrying too much about the wolves getting the item."
23:46:16: <bird> wait, how was that dumbtelling
23:46:27: <bird> Wasn't he saying "and if he's human and doesn't die" in the sense that the other bomb exploded rather than his?
23:48:14: <fank009> oh :/
23:48:35: <fank009> Im thinking way too much...
23:50:48: <bird> you do think too much!
23:53:40: <fank009> Pingas xD
23:54:18: <fank009> As I was saying,
23:54:31: <fank009> there Isnt a lot to go on, everyhing is left up for the imagination :/

[close]

Spoiler

00:02:09: <Thiannon> Hey guys.
00:02:29: <fank009> Thia...
00:02:54: <fank009> Give me a GOOD reason why you shouldnt die?
00:03:46: <fank009> because my logic leads to only one road.
00:04:08: <fank009> BDS is human based on verms findings,
00:04:27: <fank009> we have FA, telling wolf here there and everywhere,
00:04:31: <bird> yay its thiannon
00:04:41: <fank009> And we have bird, lemme quote greg...
00:04:51: <bird> dont worry while you were gone i've been busy turning everyone against you
00:05:26: <fank009> no you havent xD
00:06:04: <fank009> I was already of that opinion
00:06:08: <bird> w/e
00:07:09: <fank009> from greg: "(Bird because of his out-of-character rule misreadings: I feel like a wolf would have asked the host privately or something similar."
00:08:37: <bird> bye thiannon
00:09:00: <fank009> I scared him
00:09:18: <fank009> :/
00:09:26: <bird> hi gilgy
00:12:43: <Thiannon> Did you guys get any of that?
00:13:33: <fank009> get any of what?
00:13:43: <fank009> you ping'd out...
00:13:47: <Thiannon> I posted five or so sentences in my defence.
00:13:58: <fank009> no we didnt
00:13:58: <Thiannon> Ugh. I'm stuck on my tablet.
00:14:04: <fank009> ^:/
00:14:07: <fank009> tablet sucks
00:14:13: <bird> Sorry, we didn't get any of it!
00:14:20: <Thiannon> Well, I still don't understand what the case is against me.
00:14:29: <fank009> for me,
00:14:34: <fank009> its process of elimination.
00:14:35: <bird> fank you go first
00:14:51: <fank009> since everyone was claiming before hand,
00:15:01: <Thiannon> I've been saying BDS is human all game, and that FA is a wolf for at least the last couple of phases.
00:15:20: <bird> :|
00:15:46: <fank009> :/
00:15:50: <Thiannon> Argh.
00:15:52: <fank009> you keep pinging out :/
00:15:54: <fank009> anyway...
00:15:59: <fank009> I'll try get my thoughts here...
00:16:04: <fank009> and add the log for you later in a post
00:16:08: <fank009> So,
00:16:21: <fank009> Bird was saying yesterday that one wolf MAY be dead...
00:16:25: <fank009> In that thinking...
00:16:38: <fank009> you are the only one that fits the bill (imo)
00:16:42: <bird> Thiannon, when will you be on a real computer?
00:17:19: <Thiannon> Tomorrow morning.
00:17:27: <Thiannon> I left my wireless adaptor at work.
00:17:28: <bird> Ooooooooooooooooooooooh.
00:17:34: <Thiannon> Yup.
00:17:38: <bird> That's too bad.
00:17:43: <fank009> my post here... http://www.ninsheetm.us/smf/index.php?topic=5956.msg232663#msg232663
00:17:50: <Thiannon> If I get lynched and we lose because of it, I'll be pissed.
00:18:03: <Thiannon> Seriously, Bird, if you're not a wolf...
00:18:24: <fank009> Whats your thoughts on greg's take on bird?
00:18:25: <Thiannon> You know me better than anyone on NSM. You should be advocating for my humanity!
00:18:30: <bird> You seriously don't have any other computers near you?
00:18:44: <bird> Can't you go to the library or something
00:19:02: <bird> just a fun library trip to talk to people on the internet
00:19:05: <bird> nothing out of the ordinary about that
00:19:09: <Thiannon> I might be able to borrow my roommate's laptop.
00:19:43: <bird> Well, I'd definitely try to! The fact of the matter is I'm going to pursue a you lynch whether or not you are able to get your hands on one.
00:19:43: <Thiannon> Frank, you're saying you're convinced Blueflower is a wolf and I'm his only possible partner?
00:19:46: <bird> SO you better come to the battle armed!
00:20:03: <Thiannon> Of course you will. You're a wolf!
00:20:22: <Thiannon> I'm beyond annoyed with myself about last night.
00:20:33: <Thiannon> I was exhausted and not in the mood to quarrel.
00:20:49: <Thiannon> You know that I back down when you threaten me!
00:21:06: <fank009> thia...
00:21:13: <Thiannon> Dark and Maxjes did it in I Spy, you did it in Maestro's king game.
00:21:38: <fank009> you really havent been reading me,, have you?
00:21:50: <fank009> I've been pushing for a while that 2 wolves are alive...
00:22:04: <Thiannon> I'm sorry, frank, but I do find your posts a little difficult to parse.
00:22:05: <fank009> so I decided to put Birds, one wolf dead theory to the test...
00:22:10: <Thiannon> Okay.
00:22:12: <fank009> and you came up as a result.
00:22:27: <fank009> Bird Is a compatible partner...
00:22:40: <fank009> Though greg makes a brilliant point about bird here,
00:22:58: <Thiannon> Bird is a compatible partner with me?
00:23:03: <bird> ?
00:23:09: <fank009> http://www.ninsheetm.us/smf/index.php?topic=5956.msg232610#msg232610
00:23:21: <fank009> compatible with blueflower
00:23:58: <Thiannon> I agree.
00:24:13: <Thiannon> That's why I'd rather lynch him over FA.
00:24:29: <Thiannon> But I'm willing to lynch either.
00:24:33: <bird> compatible with blueflower who wasn't suspicious at all
00:24:51: <fank009> (neither is anyone else "in comparison")
00:25:02: <Thiannon> It's just a tiebreaker between you and FA, Bird.
00:25:15: <fank009> Anyway, Question.
00:25:16: <Thiannon> Why do insist on failing to see that??
00:25:26: <bird> Why do you think FA is a wolf?
00:25:35: <Thiannon> He bombed very.
00:25:44: <fank009> because the wolfish people are always wolves???
00:25:54: <bird> Yeah, but his choice was very consistent with the paradigm through which he spotted wolves
00:25:58: <fank009> (He's shooting FA, for poisoning verm...)
00:26:02: <bird> That's also why he was suspicious of Liggy when nobody else was.
00:26:06: <fank009> Verm...
00:26:06: <Thiannon> He's been pushing me as a wolf for a few phases. I'm not a wolf.
00:26:12: <Thiannon> You keep defending him.
00:26:28: <fank009> was a consensus agreement.
00:26:33: <fank009> ^
00:26:38: <fank009> I somewhat agree thia...
00:26:47: <fank009> I thought the buddying was somewhat suspicious...
00:26:51: <Thiannon> The Liggy thing doesn't make sense, I'll agree with that.
00:27:48: <fank009> but then, why would bird undergo such obvious buddying like that???
00:28:12: <fank009> FA Is acting wolfish, doesnt mean that he isnt a human though.
00:28:18: <fank009> who was it,
00:28:21: <fank009> I think you said it...
00:28:47: <Thiannon> We'll, if it's Bird/FA, one more lynch loses us the game.
00:29:04: <Thiannon> Also, you can use the same logic about me and BDS.
00:29:22: <fank009> That reminds me...
00:29:36: <fank009> where did the "thia/BDS" team come from???
00:31:03: <fank009> because No one mentioned it before your post.
00:31:18: <Thiannon> Before my post.
00:31:31: <Thiannon> ?
00:31:34: <fank009> let me find it...
00:31:47: <Thiannon> God, I can't even type. Question mark on this thing.
00:31:50: <fank009> http://www.ninsheetm.us/smf/index.php?topic=5956.msg232665#msg232665
00:32:21: <fank009> All right, I have a lot to say but no time to say it. But I am thinking now that it makes more sense to lynch one of FA/Bird and then re-evaluate next day as to whether we kill the other one or one of BDS/fank. If it's fank or BDS, his partner is probably already dead (i.e. Maestro). This probably won't placate the Thiannon/BDS shippers, but whatever.
00:32:33: <fank009> (copy pasted for convienience)
00:39:01: <fank009> afk for lunch
00:51:45: <fank009> lol FA...
00:51:57: <fank009> Thia is suspicious for not being suspicious xD
01:00:29: <bird> did you see my new post
01:03:01: <fank009> wolves can just simply shoot...
01:03:59: <bird> what do you mean
01:04:10: <bird> oh
01:04:17: <bird> you mean like at the last second shoot and survive
01:04:32: <bird> that's... too bad
01:15:23: <fank009> reading your log with thia
01:21:52: <fank009> hi bird...
01:22:01: <fank009> interesting points by thia...
01:27:53: <bird> like what
01:29:31: <fank009> comparisons between this and the king game...
01:31:47: <bird> oh yeah
01:31:52: <bird> well i just reread that game
01:32:03: <bird> so funny how bds lynched thiannon over me
01:32:21: <bird> But I think the connections are pretty loose at best.
01:32:44: <fank009> thats right...
01:32:58: <fank009> I was advocating against thia's lynch xD
01:36:21: <fank009> I need to make a post,
01:36:29: <fank009> points are easier to point out than in the chat...
01:51:07: <fank009> ...
01:51:16: <fank009> if waddle doesnt give me an answer before I go to bed...
01:52:08: <fank009> I'll prolly shoot thia
01:56:53: <bird> yeah where the heck is everyone
01:57:27: <fank009> I'll be sending you the pm exchange with BDS
01:57:54: <fank009> see what you make of it...
01:59:26: <bird> did you send it
01:59:38: <fank009> im still compiling it
02:00:15: <fank009> there you go
02:00:51: <bird> ok
02:03:18: <bird> It's pretty unlikely Waddle is going to respond in time.
02:03:28: <bird> He never posts at this time
02:04:03: <bird> its like 4:00 AM where he lives
02:04:25: <bird> I think we should give it another hour or two to see if FA and Greg come to the chat.
02:10:33: <greg> WOAH there's people here
02:10:34: <fank009> hi there...
02:10:37: <greg> Hey.
02:10:45: <fank009> and you are suprised why?
02:10:58: <fank009> Do you see the lack of posts from this guy?
02:11:10: <fank009> he's been here all day :/
02:11:18: <greg> i dunno, it's usually just one person. And now it's... two people, I guess.
02:11:36: <greg> Yeah, sorry for not posting. I do tend to do that sometimes, but I've got an essay due tomorrow and such
02:12:19: <fank009> ...
02:12:26: <fank009> thoughts on thia/BDS combo...
02:12:31: <fank009> and particualrly
02:13:01: <fank009> http://www.ninsheetm.us/smf/index.php?topic=5956.msg232665#msg232665
02:13:07: <fank009> ^ and the next post
02:13:25: <greg> I don't know if BDS's reaction to the joke means anything.
02:13:41: <greg> But Thiannon's weird about-face is the most suspicious thing about him in my opinion.
02:16:58: <greg> hey bird you here
02:37:46: <fank009> bird, your not having another private chat without me are you?
02:38:07: <greg> he's marked away.
02:38:12: <greg> anyway I have to go again.
02:38:24: <greg> So yeah, bye.
02:49:42: <bird> aw i missed greg
02:50:17: <fank009> yeah :/
02:50:31: <bird> i was eating dinner!
02:50:48: <fank009> :/
02:50:50: <fank009> anyway...
02:50:54: <fank009> this is from thia...
02:51:09: <fank009> BDS is legitimately the only player I'm compatible with, and if we're partners, not only did I refuse to take the easy way out (encouraging Bird to vote for fank), I painted a giant sign announcing that BDS and I are partners
02:51:14: <fank009> Q
02:51:20: <fank009> would he really do that as a wolf???
02:54:48: <bird> idk it's stupid whether he's a wolf or a human
02:54:59: <bird> wasn't he JUST ARGUING that people who say "it would be stupid for me to do that as a wolf" are wolves?
02:57:29: <fank009> mind you...
02:57:45: <fank009> people have argued that I've done stupid stuff on either side of the line...
02:58:05: <fank009> wait...
02:58:28: <bird> Anyway, I have a lot of trouble eliminating Fiver/BDS since everyone else is already eliminated
02:59:14: <fank009> http://www.ninsheetm.us/smf/index.php?topic=5956.msg232606#msg232606
02:59:20: <fank009> well,
02:59:30: <fank009> there's that quote
02:59:50: <fank009> :/
03:00:01: <fank009> I think,
03:00:08: <fank009> when there is no one left to call wolves,
03:00:15: <fank009> we need to turn the situation around...
03:00:22: <fank009> Why is greg human again?
03:00:58: <bird> because of his two proposed bomb plans
03:01:32: <bird> first he proposed bombing humans which seems like a dumb thing to say as a wolf
03:01:35: <bird> then he suggested holding onto the bombs
03:01:58: <fank009> then we have that distancing from thia...
03:02:07: <fank009> well...
03:02:12: <fank009> this computer is in demand,
03:02:22: <fank009> I'll chat to you either mobile or later bird
03:02:33: <bird> Okay
03:02:43: <bird> I'm probably going to vote in the next 90 minutes or so, just fyi
03:04:24: <bird> Man, Thiannon is making me doubt myself
03:04:29: <bird> Why can't you be partners with BDS again?
03:07:27: <fank009> why cant I?
03:07:48: <fank009> I dont think I have ever stated why not...
03:11:39: <bird> ughhh
03:12:05: <fank009> ...
03:12:14: <fank009> it must be hard to imagine birds head right about now :/
03:17:54: <fank009> well
03:17:57: <fank009> I'll be back

[close]

[fank009]

I meant chat log :/

why do I have PMS on my mind (bird :/)


Big post explaining all of my thoughts/case/meta clears xD
or i might split it up xD

[Bird]

Well, in response to both of those things, I don't think either of you expected that these PMs would be used as evidence against you. On the surface, it seems to eliminate the two of you as possible partners, which is why you wouldn't anticipate something like this!

I had logs with all the surviving players today. The FireArrow and BlackDragonSlayer ones are the only ones I think that are worth reading. The FireArrow log has me finding the evidence that makes Thiannon/BDS less likely, and the BDS log has me pouring my little heart out in a defense (that just barely puts a crack in his stubborn armor).

FireArrow:

Spoiler

(9:54:20 PM) bird: what's upppp
(9:54:47 PM) FireArrow: oh crap just noticed this lol
(9:54:58 PM) bird: Well it had only been 27 seconds anyway
(9:55:05 PM) FireArrow: k good lol
(9:55:13 PM) bird: Who do you suspect at the moment?
(9:55:41 PM) FireArrow: Thia the most - he's seemed to be the highest on my list most consistently throughout the game
(9:56:06 PM) bird: Why is that?
(9:56:15 PM) FireArrow: His activity level is bizzare
(9:56:19 PM) FireArrow: I know he's been busy
(9:56:30 PM) FireArrow: but I don't really buy it all that much
(9:56:40 PM) FireArrow: plus that really odd "wolves wolf me" at the begging
(9:57:37 PM) bird: I don't know, I think he jokes like that all the time.
(9:57:49 PM) bird: So I'm guessing you also think that his partner is BDS?
(9:57:59 PM) FireArrow: I'm actually completely stumped on that
(9:58:13 PM) FireArrow: I'm thinking it's either BDS or Greg, with greg being unlikely
(9:59:05 PM) FireArrow: That being said I completely agree with the whole "wait on thia lynch BDS"
(9:59:13 PM) FireArrow: I think if there are 2 wolves left, BDS is bound to be one of them
(9:59:21 PM) FireArrow: whereas thia is more likely if there's one
(10:04:22 PM) bird: I just don't think Greg is a wolf.
(10:04:39 PM) bird: He really only works with Thiannon anyway
(10:04:44 PM) bird: The way I'm looking at it right now,
(10:04:45 PM) FireArrow: So, yeah, I guess that leaves BDS
(10:05:24 PM) bird: BDS covers the BDS/THia, BDS/Fank option, and Thiannon covers the BDS/Thia, Greg/Thia options. And I think the BDS/Fank option is more likely than the Thia/Greg option. Thus BDS lynch!
(10:05:45 PM) FireArrow: ^Yes
(10:06:08 PM) FireArrow: I think that's worth you saying to the thread
(10:06:19 PM) FireArrow: You did it much better than my earlier attempt
(10:06:22 PM) bird: haha
(10:06:22 PM) bird: thanks
(10:06:23 PM) bird: Well
(10:06:27 PM) bird: I just want to make use of this chat time
(10:06:35 PM) bird: Well
(10:06:39 PM) bird: I want to make use of BDS being here
(10:06:55 PM) bird: I just can't see how he thinks I'm a wolf!
(10:06:55 PM) FireArrow: Isn't he a pretty good wolf?
(10:07:14 PM) FireArrow: tbh I really don't get why people think we're partners either
(10:07:19 PM) FireArrow: We wouldn't play this stupid :/
(10:07:55 PM) bird: Well it's really only BDS and Thiannon who think we're partners.
(10:08:02 PM) bird: And that could be explained by them being wolves.
(10:08:07 PM) FireArrow: fank gave up on it?
(10:08:09 PM) bird: Well, Greg is toying with the idea, but he's far from certain
(10:08:15 PM) bird: Fank's shooting for Thiannon/Greg
(10:08:39 PM) FireArrow: What, lol he's not a very sticky weapon
(10:08:48 PM) bird: (Which is one of the reasons I think fank might be a wolf with BDS, the obvious patner for Thiannon. Why would fank argue Thiannon/Greg rather than Thiannon/BDS?)
(10:09:27 PM) FireArrow: Ah!
(10:09:57 PM) FireArrow: Gregs been on the top of his list all game though
(10:39:17 PM) bird: Maybe BDS is the last wolf
(10:39:31 PM) FireArrow: There's a thought
(10:39:38 PM) bird: I think it would add up
(10:39:43 PM) bird: his partner couuld beeeeeee
(10:39:44 PM) bird: maestro
(10:40:03 PM) FireArrow: Or really anyone right?
(10:40:11 PM) bird: anyone dead and not wolfed
(10:40:12 PM) bird: so
(10:40:19 PM) bird: maestro/verm/blueflower/askalice
(10:40:21 PM) FireArrow: I don't recall BDS having much interaction with any of the dead players
(10:40:41 PM) FireArrow: Early game he was kinda like, saying a lot without saying anything
(10:41:27 PM) bird: who all voted for bleuflower
(10:41:36 PM) bird: you... fank...
(10:42:00 PM) FireArrow: greg
(10:42:05 PM) bird: oh ok
(10:42:24 PM) FireArrow: which actually was really weird but w.e
(10:43:14 PM) bird: the whole blueflower lynch thing is another reason lots of players look like a good partner with BDS
(10:43:36 PM) FireArrow: How so?
(10:43:56 PM) bird: It seemed like the lynch was rapidly changed to blueflower in order to prevent BDS from getting lynched
(10:44:37 PM) FireArrow: Lol I started the lynch, and it was only because I thought he was suspicois
(10:44:51 PM) FireArrow: unless fank jumped in to save BDS?
(10:45:00 PM) bird: Yeah
(10:45:13 PM) bird: Well Thiannon was also a tacit supporter but he didn't change his vote
(10:45:17 PM) bird: actually
(10:45:18 PM) bird: hm
(10:45:51 PM) bird: http://www.ninsheetm.us/smf/index.php?topic=5956.msg232120#msg232120
(10:45:58 PM) bird: So from there
(10:46:08 PM) bird: fank would be saving both himself and BDS
(10:46:30 PM) FireArrow: Ok, wow, I didn't even think that this lynch was relevant.
(10:46:33 PM) FireArrow: Nice catch!
(10:46:33 PM) bird: I feel like if Thiannon was BDS's partner, he would have voted for fank/blueflower/changed his vote

[close]

BDS:

Spoiler

Note: the first bit was a test to see if the PMs made by fank were forged by fank alone. BDS immediately expressed awareness of them, so I dropped the subject.

(9:42:24 PM) bird: Okay
(9:42:28 PM) bird: I'm just going to ask you a few questions
(9:42:33 PM) bird: tell me when you're ready
(9:45:06 PM) BlackDragonSlayer: Here.
(9:45:10 PM) bird: Great!
(9:45:27 PM) bird: fank offhandedly mentioned sending you a couple of PMs, could you tell me what they're about?
(9:45:44 PM) BlackDragonSlayer: I can post them in the thread if you like; I believe I also mentioned them.
(9:46:05 PM) bird: Oh.
(9:46:08 PM) bird: Okay nevermind then!
(9:46:21 PM) bird: Wow it took way less time than I thought!
(9:46:33 PM) BlackDragonSlayer: Yeah, I referenced something I said about greg (that turned out being wrong due to an improper assumption).
(9:58:24 PM) bird: Are you still thinking the wolves are FA and I?
(9:58:45 PM) BlackDragonSlayer: Off course.
(9:59:00 PM) BlackDragonSlayer: At least, the most likely option.
(9:59:17 PM) bird: Right.
(9:59:23 PM) bird: Do you just suspect FA due to his association with me?
(9:59:33 PM) bird: Oh also, sorry for getting snappy with you in the thread. That was pretty rude.
(9:59:36 PM) bird: Well, unless you're a wolf.
(10:00:00 PM) BlackDragonSlayer: For the most part; I just don't see how he's been *really* human.
(10:00:52 PM) bird: Hah
(10:01:02 PM) bird: Well, it's really the one post at the beginning I keep referencing again and again.
(10:01:07 PM) bird: I don't have much else.
(10:09:13 PM) bird: Alright BDS, are you ready to be convinced of my humanity?
(10:09:46 PM) BlackDragonSlayer: Shock me.
(10:09:55 PM) bird: Right.
(10:10:04 PM) bird: Very beginning of the game. Fade in. I get my PM.
(10:10:08 PM) bird: Oh, I'm a wolf.
(10:10:12 PM) bird: JK ITS A FUCKING MARQUEE.
(10:10:38 PM) bird: I immediately PM Waddle Bro "Haha, you really had me for a second. Just make sure you post the human PM in the thread so nobody pulls any tricks."
(10:10:58 PM) bird: Next, I argue a certain player is human, right off the bat.
(10:11:01 PM) bird: Why would I do that as a wolf?
(10:11:06 PM) bird: That person ended up being human. The most human!
(10:11:15 PM) bird: I could have taken your route of simply saying they were kidding, but I didn't!
(10:11:35 PM) bird: This carried over to me saying FA and Askalice were human as well.
(10:11:40 PM) bird: Look at me, calling all these players human.
(10:11:44 PM) bird: Not typical wolf stuff imo.
(10:11:58 PM) BlackDragonSlayer: You're referring to Nahak?
(10:12:02 PM) BlackDragonSlayer: *Nakah
(10:12:05 PM) bird: nakah/nocturne yeah
(10:12:13 PM) BlackDragonSlayer: Wasn't he wolfed?
(10:12:18 PM) bird: yeah
(10:12:21 PM) BlackDragonSlayer: Yep.
(10:12:24 PM) BlackDragonSlayer:
(10:12:38 PM) bird: BUT WAIT THERE'S MORE
(10:12:50 PM) bird: My chronic rule misinterpretations
(10:13:00 PM) bird: Wouldn't I have immediately PM'd Waddle about the bombs with my questions?
(10:13:08 PM) bird: There was a lot I wanted to know, and even more I didn't really understand.
(10:13:14 PM) bird: Yet there I was, an ignorant idiot in the thread.
(10:13:22 PM) bird: Would I play THAT DUMB as a wolf?
(10:13:25 PM) bird: doubt it!!!!!!!!!!
(10:14:10 PM) bird: I also argued that we should keep liggy alive for the antidote (which could have saved verm, from my perspective, or even ask alice)
(10:14:37 PM) bird: and what's that sound? Oh yeah it's more evidence poitning to me being human!!!!
(10:14:43 PM) BlackDragonSlayer: But you "didn't know" that the poison would be instant (none of us did, though, so that makes no difference)
(10:14:59 PM) bird: well focus on the bomb stuff then!!!
(10:15:07 PM) BlackDragonSlayer: If you asked him any questions beforehand, though...
(10:15:36 PM) bird: Anyway, now it's day phase three!
(10:15:44 PM) bird: What's the first thing I do? Make sure everyone knows how importnat the phase is!
(10:15:50 PM) bird: Everybody has to agree or we lose! nobody can shoot or we lose!
(10:15:57 PM) BlackDragonSlayer: So you could direct them.
(10:16:00 PM) bird: I could have sat in waiting, letting somebody make the mistake of shooting bullets
(10:16:15 PM) bird: I come up with a plan for having two people die, one that would certianly benefit the humans!
(10:16:17 PM) BlackDragonSlayer: I doubt very many people would've in the first place.
(10:16:17 PM) bird: It doesn't work but who cares!
(10:16:31 PM) bird: And then I ask for the host to grant a phase extension, something that goes against everything I care about in TWG
(10:16:38 PM) bird: I am always saying hosts SHOULDN'T do that since it's unfair to the wolves
(10:16:41 PM) bird: but i did it anyway!!!
(10:16:57 PM) BlackDragonSlayer: That's the thing: none of those plans (the last two) really came into fruition. It's easy to fake subtle things to look human.
(10:17:16 PM) bird: I've like, read through the entire thread 5 times by now.
(10:17:18 PM) BlackDragonSlayer: (plus, if a wolf were the one who was asking for the extension... )
(10:17:36 PM) bird: I just don't know what else I could do to be more human!
(10:17:47 PM) bird: All that's against me is that stupid day one suspicion list and some wolfy vibes?
(10:17:50 PM) bird: What am I supposed to do about that!
(10:18:00 PM) bird: I'm even doing something I never ever do... I'm doubting myself!
(10:18:06 PM) BlackDragonSlayer: Correction: what you've been doing since too.
(10:18:21 PM) bird: What makes you so darn CONVINCED?
(10:18:28 PM) bird: I'm telling you, it's not right!
(10:19:12 PM) BlackDragonSlayer: Nobody else, except for MAYBE Thiannon, is anywhere near as wolfy as you and FA (or just you, but that's a bit less likely).
(10:19:42 PM) bird: What makes you say that?
(10:20:02 PM) BlackDragonSlayer: I'm doubting myself a little bit.
(10:20:11 PM) BlackDragonSlayer: (which is usually a bad thing)
(10:20:15 PM) bird: well you should! ):<
(10:21:04 PM) bird: Just... take what I said into consideration at least.

[close]

Greg:

Spoiler

(9:58:09 PM) bird: What did you think of Thiannon's defense?
(9:58:20 PM) Greg: I need to read All the King's Men.
(9:59:01 PM) bird: oh for a second i thought you meant the book
(9:59:08 PM) Greg: lol
(10:00:05 PM) bird: Funny thing about that game
(10:00:24 PM) bird: Thiannon said "he's acting just like he did as a wolf in twg __ !!!!!" in that game as well
(10:00:37 PM) bird: And I'm not acting anything like I did in TWG ___!!!!
(10:00:42 PM) bird: I think it was walking small on LLF
(10:01:19 PM) Greg: man I can't keep track of all of these games
(10:01:36 PM) bird: I have a pretty bad memory for TWG as well.
(10:01:43 PM) bird: And I know my opinion is biased
(10:01:55 PM) bird: Back to that thiannon quote...
(10:01:56 PM) bird: he said
(10:02:09 PM) bird: "Bird's been acting just like he did in TWG whatever, complete with a garbage early-game suspicion of me."
(10:02:31 PM) bird: I think that's one mark in my favor. Where in that game, my Thiannon suspicion was actually garbage, this game has a lot of evidence pointing to him being a wolf.
(10:02:46 PM) bird: Additionally, BDS as the human king totally bought into my wolfy bullshit and ended up killing Thiannon over me.
(10:02:53 PM) bird: BDS is also acting completely different.
(10:02:56 PM) Greg: God damnit I don't want to read 28 pages of TWG right now.
(10:03:01 PM) bird: yeah sorry
(10:03:07 PM) Greg: This is why I almost never use past games as evidence
(10:03:09 PM) bird: But thiannon dies on day 2 so you really only need to read that far
(10:03:15 PM) Greg: mkay then

[close]

fank009:

Spoiler

The first part of this log was to distract fank009 so he couldn't talk to BDS while I was interrogating him. Not like it mattered!

(9:45:36 PM) bird: wait fank
(9:45:44 PM) bird: why is it that you suspect greg over BDS?
(9:46:04 PM) fank009: Two things
(9:46:30 PM) fank009: One- verms analysis of bds has given me a biased opinion
(9:46:48 PM) fank009: Two, greg hasnt really screamed wolf like anyone else...
(9:49:39 PM) fank009: :/
(9:49:54 PM) fank009: You know how flip floppy I am with bds...
(9:50:04 PM) fank009: I wanted another angle
(9:58:41 PM) bird: You don't think BDS has done anything odd this game?
(9:58:53 PM) fank009: ...
(9:58:57 PM) fank009: xD
(9:59:05 PM) fank009: Your kidding right,
(9:59:13 PM) fank009: Odd = normal???
(9:59:17 PM) fank009: But yeah
(9:59:31 PM) fank009: You know this time last phase?
(9:59:46 PM) bird: What do you mean?
(10:00:25 PM) fank009: I sent the three of you, fa,you,bds pms at the end of last phase
(10:00:39 PM) fank009:  /put them in the thread
(10:00:50 PM) fank009: Waot, private chats here
(10:01:19 PM) bird:    Oh yeah.

[close]

Thiannon:

Spoiler

Same Thiannon log as earlier.

(6:27:10 PM) bird: How much time do you think you'll be able to spend online tonight?
(6:27:17 PM) Thiannon: Let's do it!
(6:27:24 PM) Thiannon: Maybe another fifteen minutes.
(6:27:32 PM) bird: Worst scheduling ever.
(6:27:39 PM) bird: Alright, well I guess I'll just outline why I think you're a wolf.
(6:27:39 PM) Thiannon: I have a mountain of dishes and an essay to write.
(6:27:52 PM) Thiannon: Yeah, my Mondays and Tuesdays suck this term.
(6:28:02 PM) Thiannon: Please do!
(6:28:10 PM) bird: From my perspective, only three players are suspicious: you, BDS and fank.
(6:28:28 PM) bird: Greg is cleared not just because of the gambit, but because of his first plan where he said we should bomb the humans. That's a pretty risky thing for a wolf to say.
(6:28:48 PM) bird: FireArrow because of that post I pointed out to you last time we spoke; the one that led you to comment "wow that's a good strategy"
(6:29:09 PM) bird: As I looked into the three players I found suspicious, I realized that you and BDS were extremely compatible partners, so I began to look at the two of you more in-depth.
(6:29:18 PM) bird: There were numerous instances where you backed one another up.
(6:29:30 PM) bird: (He said your stupid plans were good on night 1, you said you "didn't get" the BDS lynch)
(6:29:30 PM) Thiannon: Yeah, I know.
(6:29:45 PM) bird: Neither of you has suspected the other, seemingly without much reason.
(6:29:52 PM) Thiannon: BDS and I are phenomenally compatible.
(6:30:01 PM) bird: Alright, then we're on the same page.
(6:30:04 PM) bird: But why you over him?
(6:30:06 PM) bird: Two reasons.
(6:30:20 PM) bird: First: Greg thinks the wolves are fank/bds, fank thinks the wolves are you/greg
(6:30:36 PM) bird: I think I'll have an easier time getting greg to vote you than getting fank to vote bds.
(6:30:49 PM) bird: And I need four votes on one of the wolves to win.
(6:30:58 PM) bird: Next, you've recently made a few suspicious moves
(6:31:57 PM) bird: I thought it was extraordinarily odd, how as we chatted, you remarked that I was seeming more and more human. Then when I pointed out the FireArrow post to you, the one which I used to justify his humanity, and my ceaseless defending him, you commented that it was a good strategy. You proceeded to post a suspicion list with fank/bds as 1 and 2 with firearrow and i as 3 and 4.
(6:32:20 PM) bird: But then you make another post which says the polar opposite! Now you're gunning for firearrow and I this phase. Which from my perspective will guarantee a human loss.
(6:32:38 PM) Thiannon: You were pretty convincing!
(6:32:47 PM) bird: You also made a throwaway joke statement around the same time
(6:32:56 PM) bird: "not that this will placate the Thiannon/BDS shippers"
(6:33:06 PM) bird: Up until that point, I don't think anybody had seriously proposed the two of you as partners.
(6:33:15 PM) bird: So it seemed like a weird thing to say.
(6:33:27 PM) bird: BDS's laughing response was also exceedingly odd, since it really wasn't that funny
(6:33:29 PM) bird: really
(6:33:35 PM) bird: (no offense!!!!!)
(6:33:41 PM) Thiannon: Plus, I told you going into that conversation that you were my top suspicion.
(6:33:54 PM) bird: Doesn't matter given the more recent suspicion list.
(6:33:58 PM) bird: I think though
(6:34:01 PM) bird: The one thing that I can't let go
(6:34:05 PM) bird: Is that you still think FireArrow is a wolf.
(6:34:16 PM) bird: You're the one player I thought would be able to quickly grasp my logic.
(6:34:23 PM) bird: You did so with Nocturne/Nakah. You also agreed with me on Greg.
(6:34:29 PM) bird: But on FireArrow, you stubbornly assert we're wolf partners.
(6:34:38 PM) Thiannon: I think FA is a wolf because I think you are a wolf.
(6:35:05 PM) bird: How does me being a wolf translate to FireArrow also being a wolf?
(6:35:13 PM) bird: I've never defended a partner like this as a wolf.
(6:35:14 PM) bird: Ever!
(6:35:22 PM) Thiannon: You've defended him pretty we'll nonstop.
(6:35:32 PM) bird: ?
(6:35:53 PM) Thiannon: He's as compatible with you as BDS is with me.
(6:35:58 PM) bird: I disagree.
(6:36:16 PM) bird: I think there's more to compatibility than "oh he was willing to vote for him that one time"
(6:36:24 PM) bird: I think defending somebody to this degree also makes them unlikely partners.
(6:36:40 PM) bird: But let's drop that for a bit.
(6:36:44 PM) bird: I've made my case against you.
(6:36:45 PM) Thiannon: If no one was suspecting me/BDS, why did I draw so much attention to it?
(6:37:10 PM) bird: Well the idea is that it was a slip-up
(6:37:25 PM) bird: You sort of didn't realize that nobody had brought up the possibility of you two being partners when you made that joke.
(6:37:37 PM) Thiannon: You're arguing I'ma wolf by telling everyone else I'm brilliant, and telling me I'm terrible.
(6:38:00 PM) bird: I'm just shocked by how many people are so confident you're human because of your behavior.
(6:38:08 PM) bird: You're too good for people to be allowed to be that certain.
(6:38:14 PM) bird: But not too good for me!!!!
(6:38:19 PM) Thiannon: Isn't that the sort of thing I'd realize if he were my single wolf partner for the entire game?
(6:38:52 PM) bird: It's not that big of a deal really.
(6:38:55 PM) Thiannon: You're blaming me for changing my mind.
(6:39:03 PM) bird: It's a small part of the big picture.
(6:39:16 PM) Thiannon: I voted for seven humans in one day in I Spy!
(6:39:26 PM) bird: I know you've accused me of throwing stuff at the wall and seeing what sticks, that's sort of the same idea. Let's just not worry about it.
(6:39:41 PM) bird: I think I've done a good job of emphasizing the parts of my argument matter most, and that isn't one of them!
(6:39:57 PM) bird: Oh and I am blaming you for changing your mind.
(6:40:12 PM) bird: You literally made a 180 spin in a converstaion with me, then made another as soon as it was over. It's incredibly odd.
(6:40:21 PM) Thiannon: You should be blaming yourself!
(6:40:31 PM) bird: why?
(6:40:59 PM) Thiannon: You're the one who was Arguing so persuasively last night.
(6:41:15 PM) bird: Ah. Well, being extremely persuasive is indeed my curse.
(6:41:25 PM) bird: I guess another big factor in this game
(6:41:31 PM) Thiannon: My post warning about you/FA was just that: a warning.
(6:41:34 PM) bird: Is the good ole' process of elimination.
(6:41:58 PM) bird: I'm quite confident in FA's and Greg's humanity, and of the remainder, you're the best fit with BDS.
(6:42:01 PM) Thiannon: But you hammered me before I could even get home to expound it further.
(6:42:09 PM) bird: It's a bad habit.
(6:42:11 PM) Thiannon: It was five AM!
(6:42:16 PM) bird: Maybe you can form some kind of group therapy with bluengie?
(6:42:38 PM) Thiannon: All right, well, I'm about to shoot you.
(6:42:51 PM) bird: You haven't even told me why you suspect me!
(6:42:59 PM) Thiannon: If you're human and both wolves are alive, we lose.
(6:43:22 PM) Thiannon: You're doing exactly what you did in Maestro's game!
(6:43:28 PM) bird: which one was that
(6:43:37 PM) Thiannon: And being phenomenally stubborn in not seeing it.
(6:44:09 PM) bird: oh the king's men game
(6:44:13 PM) Thiannon: Yes.
(6:44:13 PM) bird: what did i do that game?
(6:44:24 PM) bird: oh hey we won
(6:44:40 PM) Thiannon: You acted strangely aloof/angry, targeted me for silly reasons.
(6:45:07 PM) bird: I'm sure I can find a game where I did that as a human
(6:45:16 PM) Thiannon: Anyway, I'm out of time.
(6:45:29 PM) bird:
(6:45:44 PM) Thiannon: If you're a wolf, congrats. If you're human, sorry I screwed it up for us again.
(6:45:51 PM) bird: wait you already did it?
(6:45:55 PM) bird: oh man i'm going to be so pissed if you're human
(6:46:03 PM) bird: at least the loss won't be my fault anyway
(6:46:13 PM) bird: oh good you didn't do it
(6:46:22 PM) bird: WAIT
(6:46:25 PM) bird: Thiannon come back dont leave
(6:46:27 PM) bird: I had an idea
(6:46:32 PM) Thiannon: What?
(6:46:36 PM) bird: Let's both die!
(6:46:46 PM) bird: It'll be great! And romantic!
(6:46:56 PM) bird: We can take advantage of the fact that bullets do double damage to yourself when not fired
(6:47:02 PM) Thiannon: I... don't think we can.
(6:47:09 PM) bird: Well, it doesn't have to be the two of us honestly
(6:47:14 PM) bird: But we can kill two people as long as they're willing
(6:47:28 PM) bird: Why wouldn't we be able to do that?
(6:47:32 PM) Thiannon: Oh!
(6:47:35 PM) Thiannon: Hmm.
(6:48:24 PM) bird: Of course, it'll be extreeeeemely embarrassing if we're both human. Or whoever the suicidees are
(6:48:24 PM) Thiannon: I don't see how this doesn't expose me to wasted human bullets and get me lynched and you the wolf win.
(6:48:33 PM) Thiannon: Or whoever.
(6:48:50 PM) Thiannon: Two missed human buckets and we lose, right.
(6:48:54 PM) bird: Okay how's this
(6:49:06 PM) Thiannon: I have to go, Sauce!
(6:49:18 PM) bird: Will you be able to chek the thread again at least once in the next 6 hours?
(6:49:28 PM) Thiannon: Yes.
(6:49:32 PM) bird: Okay
(6:49:37 PM) bird: Don't shoot yet then!
(6:49:42 PM) Thiannon: Post this log if you're a human!
(6:49:46 PM) Thiannon: Okay.
(6:49:46 PM) bird: I'll try and think of a fair risk-free way to do this in the meantime
(6:49:47 PM) bird: lol
(6:49:47 PM) bird: sure
(6:49:58 PM) Thiannon: Later!

[close]

[BlackDragonSlayer]

The thing is Bird, is seems as if your accusations of me (mostly in recent time) entirely rely on who could be a partner with me, rather than in addition tp if I were just a wolf with (insert name here), whereas I believe that my accusations against you hold water no matter who your partner is (to a certain logical extent, though)... FireArrow slightly less so...

[fank009]

Im all lonely in the chat y'know :/

[fank009]

Thoughts
this game is a complete mess. Everyone has wolfish points, and everyone has human points. Greg/Thia are too human, BDS/Firearrow are obvious wolves, and Bird is nice and there in the middle.

BDS, Im going to trust in verms claim, I somewhat agree with it too (though he was quiet day, 2 hence my doubts...)
Firearrow, Looks naturally wolfish, and is therefore a human. he isnt scared to do that type of play. (and so on.)
Bird, as greg pointed out, has had some mechanically clearing stuff, with suggestions regards to mechanics that are too pro human. (exhibit A; asking for an extenstion), a wolf doesnt need anything from this phase, and can stay alive.
Greg's only human qualities are the plans. he hasnt really done anything abruptly wolfy, and IMO, just wants to look human.
Thia, Null tell all game, nothing really attracting me either side (up to day 2... day 3 is a different story.


Now that the summary of my thoughts are out...
Time to clear myself (yet again)
Meta play
-Since when do I Put wolf buddehs as humans, on day 1???
-Fank wolf meta says I should go after FA/Bird combo today. game Wolf meta says to go after Fa/Bird combo today... Everything was setup, I had a case and everything, yet I went against the grain, and went for Greg/thia
Game play
-Greg would be dead right now. Nuff said. *pokes pms*
-If I wanted Odds, I would have tied the vote with you (bird) day 1. If I wanted evens, I would have wolfed
-Ballot box vote

waddle, so someone has to be shot by a majority, and regardless of having 5 alive next day phase (if no one dies?) wolves still win???

(so there ARE two wolves left, I think the liggy wolfing sealed the game)

-Pro human Quote is pro human.

(10:44:51 PM) FireArrow: unless fank jumped in to save BDS?

... I wonder why people are even thinking about the idea

greg, at the time it was me and bds tied, blueflower had one vote, and I wasnt going to lynch bds anytime soon,
me, not voting for someone I deem scummy,  and voting someone else to save my skin, is wolfish?

Clearly stated clear as day (speaking about clear, Obvious buddyment is obvious)
Anyone can feign ignorance... (and someone has.) Are you just going to let it slip bye?

All these "human tells" are null. Everyone's been doing them, and as a result everyone's human... If we look for basic "human tells" we find ourselves getting bewitched by the wolves.

Finding tells is never an easy task... As I profess (somewhere) all the time... For every bluff there is an equal and opposite bluff. Opening the mind and revisiting the game at every angle, at every rebluff.. and we get to (what I feel is the truth)

Now, For what we all waited for... Cases.
I'll start at the top of my leans and go down.
Case For BDS's Humanity.
not a lot of things, but some that stand out...
-Day 1 lynch (since when is a day one lynch a wolf??? (also weak case)
-

6.  BDS:  I'm actually switching my opinion on BDS after doing some rereading!  Lately, I've noticed that BDS seems to get angry when he's a human.  This might just be because he could have different behavior on LLF (the one wolf game out of three was there) but he seemed pretty angry in that Super Smash Bros. Melee game and in the game where fank and davy were wolves.  Additionally, I'm thinking that if the wolfing was missed on purpose, it was missed because of some reason stronger than what BDS had.

Verms the word

Case Against humanity.
-Verms the word- day 2...
BDS was relatively calm, not being under the hammer and all, mind you I dont know how much water it holds...
-05:53:35: <fank009> BlackDragonSlayer   Personally, I think, for this phase, we should lynch Maestro and target Bird and Verm with the darts, and if that hasn't ended the game, go for FireArrow for the next lynch.
Bang bang bang, signed sealed delivered.
(there are only 2 wolves BDS )
Despite being at the top of my list, this still haunts me... Maybe Im over thinking, but what I saw was Bang, bang, bang.

summary, BDS, Is a mixed bag... Verms law of thumb states BDS is human, But There are some inconsitencies that I find, that I just dont like, and Im always keeping one eye on him.

Bird
Case for humanity
-

(Bird because of his out-of-character rule misreadings: I feel like a wolf would have asked the host privately or something similar.

And other instances...
-Asking for an extension

Case against humanity
-only thing human IS the Mechanical leans
-Thia said it best:
... (cant find it, so Im going to have to paraphrase)
Bird is acting exactly the same as in All the kings men

Bird, has been somewhat of a leader, while telling hard here there and everywhere, as noted, he hasnt said anything that makes me convinced he is a human (and right now... Im (Biasly) thinking otherwise) outside of mechanical leans... He does have the privilege of having little to no partners

Firearrow, Case for humanity.
-very constant play, doesnt deviate (somewhat null-ish but considering his scum tells)
Case against humanity
-the attack on nocturne night 1
-The vote for blueflower (see above about wolfish behaviour)
-a sense of dumbtelling when responding to me, (the quote is more alongthelines of "@fank you say that like Im an experienced TWGer"
-going for 3 deaths (earlier last phase)
-Suprise at liggys death, and other pundit remarks

Firearrow, is ... one of those people who come under the too wolfy to be a wolf category, He isnt afraid to put himself out there and be honest, Although he has dozens of wolf tells, its the fact that he has these wolf tells, and isnt really swayed, that gives me a human lean on him, still possibly a wolf, but I would safely put him in the human basket.

Greg
Case for humanity
-The Bomb plans day 1...
(nothing else?)
Case against humanity
-too human, not wolfed?

I had an interesting chat with greg... I'll find the logs when I can, but (i dont think its important for now...)
He would gain a lot more points from me for the bomb plan (If I wasnt the one who suggested it...)
At this present time, I really dont have a read on him, just a few tells and leans as to why he is a wolf.

the obvious one is that he's too human. he hasnt really said anything that comes up on my radar either way, just hanging in there in the balance.

(because time is short, I will cut from the meat of gregs case (it exists though)

Thia.
Case against humanity
(no case for? )
-Slip up(?) when under no pressure
-180, going from nice and calm to wanting Birds head (strange, considering I initiated the idea of Thia being a wolf)
-Show's signs of being cornered.

This probably won't placate the Thiannon/BDS shippers, but whatever.

I prolly still dont get the "butt of the joke",  but it feels out there... just like this...

19:16   Thiannon   who we wolf tonight?
19:16   Thiannon   Oh crap.
19:16   fank009   ...
19:16   fank009   got you
19:16   Thiannon   COME ON

With the two, I rarely find both pieces to be "funny jokes" as people are putting them out to be...
the latter, if anything comes under that category... Although, I cant help, but it means something, the former, Is a trap.
Why, because Bird comes in, guns blazing, and thia comes back in with a grudge, looking for birds blood.

STOP. Bird, you are not brute-forcing another lynch on me. Sorry I wasn't as willing as you'd hoped to hop your fank/BDS bandwagon, but you're going to have to pick an easier target if you want to win this game.

Bird is clearly the wolfiest player here, and is a much better lynch pick than FireArrow because he's also compatible with Maestro and Blueflower. More tonight. PLEASE DON'T KILL ME YET. (This means you, BDS.)

three things wrong here...
The sudden change of "wagons" (for lack of a better term)
The sudden strain, looking for something, anything, anyone to put the blame back on...
The pleading in the voice (?), trying anyway to stay alive.

the way you've been talking and everyone else has been talking about you, I would have thought that you would have had a better method of defense than that...

Im going over your recent post that "you got bird swayed on", Bird, Did you forget about this?
In my biased opinion, the post here holds little to no water given what's been previously said.

there's other evidence outthere as well, I'll dig into it in the morning, as well as give the connection that is desperatley missing in this argument

[Greg]

So I'm going to go ahead and do the thing where I say why I'm not people's partners, if only to placate fank. I still think all of us should do the same. Looking through the game with that perspective might be helpful, or uncover some new evidence.

Not including Liggy, Nakah, or myself, obviously. I guess I'll include askalice, just in case.

1. BlackDragonSlayer: Back when BDS/Thiannon was still a thing, I talked with Bird about stuff and we agreed that, since he suspected BDS/Thiannon and I suspected fank/BDS, compromising on lynching BDS sounded good. Also BDS/fank is the team I've been advocating for some time now.
3. Thiannon: His first reaction to my hold-the-bombs thing was to say that it might be a reverse-psychology play:

Re: Greg (I actually skimmed his post earlier): He could be a wolf banking on our letting him off of the hold-the-bomb plan. If we decide he's human because he proposed it, our decision should be to let him throw it, and he's smart enough to know that. Also, if he's human, he should know that his plan is valuable to us only insofar as it demonstrates his humanity. Taking a 50% chance of killing a confirmed human (which greg is to greg) is actually a really dumb move for a human to make.

4. askalice23: One of the few people who stayed significantly suspicious of both my bomb plans and my involvement in verm's plan on day 2. If askalice were my partner I would have kept him aware of the whole affair, and I doubt he would have proceeded to accuse me/verm as wolf partners.
6. vermilionvermin: If verm and I were wolves I definitely wouldn't have even suggested holding on to the bombs on day 1, since it would have resulted in at least one of us dying for sure.
7. blueflower999: I casted the vote that lynched him. Accidentally, yeah, but a different kind of accident. :p
8. FireArrow: This is I guess pretty weak, but in my first suspicion list (page 6) I said that I didn't remember anything about FA's play up to that point. He wasn't super visible or anything, but he'd certainly posted, and I doubt I would have decided to say that kind of thing about him if he was my wolf partner: I'd either say he was pretty human, or pretty wolfy.
9. MaestroUGC: Voted for him day phase 2, which resulted in his being lynched.
10. Bird: I hadn't noticed this before, but Bird and I are fairly good partners (although Bird/FA is probably stronger). The biggest thing against this is the private chat between Bird and me he just posted, I guess.
11. fank009: He's like the guy I've been the most against for a couple of phases now, and he's also been super against me.

SO YEAH EVERYONE DO THIS AND STUFF.

[Greg]

Whoops, forgot to say this.

I seriously doubt that Bird is a wolf now. If he's a wolf it doesn't make any sense for him to sink BDS/Thia. Everybody bought into it, and even if someone else found what Bird did, he likely wouldn't look any more suspicious, since it's something anyone could have missed. So Bird second-guessing himself here is an unambiguously human move to make.

[BlackDragonSlayer]

1. BlackDragonSlayer: Back when BDS/Thiannon was still a thing, I talked with Bird about stuff and we agreed that, since he suspected BDS/Thiannon and I suspected fank/BDS, compromising on lynching BDS sounded good. Also BDS/fank is the team I've been advocating for some time now.

...at least fank analyzed me individually...

Whoops, forgot to say this.

I seriously doubt that Bird is a wolf now. If he's a wolf it doesn't make any sense for him to sink BDS/Thia. Everybody bought into it, and even if someone else found what Bird did, he likely wouldn't look any more suspicious, since it's something anyone could have missed. So Bird second-guessing himself here is an unambiguously human move to make.

I think fank might've already said this, but most of Bird's "human" actions seem very... contrived... and completely artificial; this mostly applies to somewhat-more recent things, however (as there isn't really too much to go on earlier about Bird, though).
You say that "So Bird second-guessing himself here is an unambiguously human move to make," but then again, a wolf would be able to second-guess himself, as long as somebody was lynched (or alternatively, nobody was lynched). I, on the other hand, am sticking to my guns (or at least trying to), even though others might disagree with me (as I said in the chat, though, the only other wolf I could see aside from Bird/FA might be Thiannon as a lone wolf... might).

[Greg]

Everyone was going to lynch Thiannon. Then Bird shut that lynch down, despite the fact that he was the one who'd initiated in the first place. If Bird's a wolf, he would have just let the lynch happen, even if he found out about that evidence against his theory. After all, even if a different player had pointed out the hole in the theory, he wouldn't look any wolfier for it. As I said, that piece of evidence is something everyone could easily have missed. The fact that he pointed it out himself is a super human-looking thing to do.

[Thiannon]

I was initially hard on Bird/FA, but now I don't know what to think. Honestly, everyone's looking pretty human at this point.

That was the lead-in to my D3 suspicion list, and it signals how I felt prior to my discussion with Bird Monday night. I explicitly state that I was hard on Bird/FA. Bird was acting really strangely through the beginning of N3--vaguely uninterested or angry, which I initially attributed to his busyness but which later struck a chord with me when he confirmed he voted for me D2. He was acting exactly the same way in King's Men, as you said yourself. I've seen this sort of behaviour from him as a wolf on LLF as well, in particular this one.

Monday night, Bird and I had the conversation below. I've bolded a few key points.

Spoiler

18:37      *** bird joined #TWGNSM
18:37   bird   thiannon!!!!!
18:37   Thiannon   Hi Firandel!
18:37   bird   are you there
18:37   bird   I only have like 15 minutes
18:37   bird   Also I made a big post
18:37   Thiannon   Another one?
18:38   Thiannon   I saw the stuff re: voting.
18:38   Thiannon   Have to go back and reread the stuff before that, though.
18:38   bird   I posted a suspicion list
18:38   Thiannon   Ooh, so you did!
18:39   bird   I didn't intentionally order it, but it's basically least to most suspicious
18:39   Thiannon   Unordered suspicion lists are the new thing, aren't they?
18:39   bird   theyre the worst
18:39   bird   at least put it in tiers
18:39      *** Maestro joined #TWGNSM
18:40   bird   They've really become a staple of the game though. I'm pretty sure they started from axem's bomb game, too.
18:40   bird   UGH also the spacing of my post got all fucked up
18:40   bird   should i delete and repost it
18:40   bird   i'm twc so im above the rules
18:40   Thiannon   wolf
18:41   Thiannon   I guess you might as well. No Phantoms anymore!
18:41   Thiannon   It looks fine to me, though.
18:41   Thiannon   I mean, fank is playing this game.
18:41   bird   Well, the spoilered stuff is what I'm referring to
18:41   bird   (hah)
18:41   bird   okay yeah this is infuriating
18:41   bird   IM DOIN IT
18:43   bird   okay it's fixed
18:43   bird   Anyway Thiannon, I'm glad youre here!
18:43   bird   I'd say don't bother reading that post since we're both short on time
18:43   bird   What was that "wolf-tell" you mentioned in an earlier post that you wanted to test out this game?
18:43   Thiannon   I skimmed most of it.
18:44   Thiannon   Actually, you kind of fell into it a couple posts ago!
18:44   bird   sounds like shitty wolf tell then
18:44   Thiannon   But your last few posts make you look a lot more human.
18:44   bird   are you not going to tell me what it is?
18:44   Thiannon   I noticed Sage did this on the last LLF game, and I think both you and Nighthawk have done it in the past.
18:44   Thiannon   It's the "I'd have to be a pretty stupid wolf to do that" logic.
18:45   Thiannon   I'm pretty sure I've used it too.
18:45   bird   it's like an integral part of the game
18:45   bird   look at greg
18:45   bird   he'd have to "be a pretty stupid wolf" to argue that he shoudl hold onto the bomb
18:45   Thiannon   I dunno, maybe I've only been remembering past instances when wolves have done it.
18:45   Thiannon   Did he actually argue that in the thread, though?
18:45   bird   Well everyone else pretty much argued it for him
18:45   Thiannon   I don't think he did.
18:46   bird   Is self-arguing part of this tell?
18:46   Thiannon   Point.
18:46   Thiannon   Yes.
18:46   Thiannon   The self-arguing is the tell.
18:46   bird   Well I feel like I'm going to look stupid at the end of this game no matter my role, so make of that what you will.
18:46   Thiannon   I think humans are more inclined to just say "whoops, I messed up", or explain why they did what they did.
18:47   Thiannon   Not if you win! (Probably.)
18:47   bird   Well I think we will probably just win through dumb luck.
18:47   Thiannon   What dead player do you think was a wolf?
18:47   bird   I think there's a decent chance we got a wolf already
18:47   bird   blueflower999/verm/Maestro all have potential
18:47   bird   (askalice23 is extremely doubtful)
18:48   bird   If we do lose, I blame the ballot box phase though
18:48   bird   Ballot box games are.... man, I just can't explain how awful I think they are.
18:48   bird   so awful.
18:48   bird   It takes away everything you normally use to find out wolves and their partners
18:48   bird   Requires more consensus, allows the wolves to take advantage of lynches more easily
18:48   bird   Etc.
18:48   bird   Anyway
18:48   bird   top suspicion, gogogogo
18:49   bird   (oh also i just remembered my meeting is at 6:30 so I have a bit more time)
18:49   Thiannon   fank didn't even know what ballot boxes were!
18:49   Thiannon   Well, you and FireArrow were my one-two, but now I'm doubting both of you.
18:50   Thiannon   Greg, I guess?
18:50   bird   Why were you suspicious of FireArrow?
18:50   bird   Just because we make good partners?
18:50   Thiannon   Well, he bombed verm, who I think is human.
18:50   Thiannon   Or, at least, I wouldn't have killed him D2.
18:51   bird   Shrug.
18:51   Thiannon   Also he was weirdly convinced Blueflower was a wolf.
18:51   bird   Bombings are always high pressure
18:51   Thiannon   Which would make sense if it was him/Blueflower.
18:51   Thiannon   I was banging the Toby drum pretty hard in GoW.
18:51   Thiannon   Of course it backfired on me.
18:51   bird   Did you read the section on him from my last post?
18:52   bird   Both verm and I independently determined FA was human based off his response to NocturneofShadow's "so the mechanic is suicide?" post.
18:52   Thiannon   Yeah, I totally forgot about that post.
18:52   Thiannon   I think you're on to something with your analysis of the super-early game.
18:53   bird   that's where all the human tells live!
18:53   Thiannon   It seems to be a good way to pseudo-confirm mid-tier humans fast.
18:53   Thiannon   Exactly!
18:53   bird   Well, until the wolves catch on and start playing dumb.
18:53   Thiannon   I don't think they have, though.
18:53   Thiannon   Well, maybe on NSM.
18:53   bird   Anyway, one of the reasons I'm feeling like there's probably only one wolf left
18:53   bird   Is the difficulty in finding partners out of the available options.
18:54   Thiannon   I'm reasonably comfortable with wolf Maestro.
18:54   bird   First of all, most people seem human.
18:54   bird   Like very human.
18:54   Thiannon   He was characteristically inactive, and his D1 plan made so much sense for a wolf.
18:54   Thiannon   Agreed.
18:54   bird   BDS has his numbers game misinterpretation, you have that one post I pointed out, Greg has the bomb gambit
18:54   bird   Which leaves Fank, but Fank isn't a good partner with like... anyone, really.
18:54   bird   Except maybe blueflower
18:54   bird   wait
18:54   bird   no
18:54   bird   yeah I don't even know.
18:55   Thiannon   He voted Blueflower, didn't he?
18:55   bird   yeah, thats why i eliminated that
18:55   bird   He was basically bragging about all the people he wasn't compatible with!
18:55   bird   You know
18:55   bird   BDS and you have both defended each other to some degree
18:55   bird   It's not an awful combination
18:56   bird   Oh another reason FA can't be a wolf
18:56   Thiannon   Yeah, he's probably my best pairing.
18:56   bird   You said you thought it was weird how he was so sure blueflower was a wolf
18:57   bird   BUt I thought his explanation for thinking so fit really well with his playstyle
18:57   bird   (that is, inactive people are wolves apparently)
18:57   Thiannon   http://www.ninsheetm.us/smf/index.php?topic=5956.msg232512#msg232512
18:57   Thiannon   BDS's suspicion list there would basically have been mine too.
18:58   Thiannon   And I'm conveniently placed right in the middle of it!
18:58   bird   Do you think BDS is human?
18:58   Thiannon   I was initially suspicious of people who thought he was a wolf because he didn't come across that way to me early.
18:59   Thiannon   And he seemed like a cop-out D1 lynch.
18:59   bird   well it was day 1
18:59   bird   (blueflower999 being so much less of a cop-out)
18:59   Thiannon   Haha, yeah, I know.
18:59   Thiannon   But you know how I feel about lynching inactives N1!
19:00   bird   I don't think it's such a bad idea anymore.
19:00   Thiannon   Ugh, I had a brainwave when I was essay-writing earlier and now it's slipped my mind.
19:00   Thiannon   Yeah, I agree.
19:00   Thiannon   Particularly on NSM.
19:00   bird   What do you think of Fank?
19:01   Thiannon   I'm not going to lie--I basically just skim his posts.
19:01   Thiannon   Both times he's been a wolf I thought he was human, though.
19:01   Thiannon   fank/Maestro makes sense, too.
19:01   bird   Well.
19:02      *** Liggy joined #TWGNSM
19:02      +++ ChanServ has given owner to Liggy
19:02      +++ ChanServ has given op to Liggy
19:02   bird   I mean, you said that that BDS list was your list basically, but he put fank at the bottom!
19:02   bird   I just don't get how people can feel strongly about fank in any direction
19:02   bird   He just says stuff and shoves it all into a single post, then peppers it with mafia jargon.
19:02   bird   And it's like the same no matter what his role is
19:03   Thiannon   http://www.ninsheetm.us/smf/index.php?topic=5956.msg232428#msg232428
19:03   Thiannon   fank would be the exception, yeah.
19:03   Thiannon   Hahahahaha.
19:04   Thiannon   That post strikes me as weird.
19:04   bird   Well it's a fank post, so...
19:05   Thiannon   Ugh.
19:05   Thiannon   I want to lynch him just because the thought of losing to him as a wolf is so annoying.
19:05      *** Maestro quit (Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client)
19:06   Thiannon   Do you think it's weird Greg hasn't been wolfed?
19:07   bird   Not necessarily.
19:07   bird   I'd definitely take Nakah and Liggy over him
19:07   bird   He would be my next choice though.
19:08   bird   I mean right? Nakah and Liggy are way more obvious choices.
19:08   Liggy   hi
19:08   bird   Liggy was basically confirmed as soon as he didn't pass the blue bomb, honestly, a point which a lot of people overlooked
19:08   bird   Which is another mark in FireArrow's favor. Why would he wolf somebody who he was convinced was a wolf? Greg was a lot more of an obvious human from his point of view.
19:09   Thiannon   Good point, actually.
19:09   Thiannon   Working on my suspicion list now, BTW.
19:09   bird   w00t
19:12   Thiannon   I can't shake the feeling that BDS is human, but you're right.
19:12   Thiannon   There's legitimately nothing that suggests he is.
19:12   Liggy   @Fiver:
19:13   Thiannon   Or nothing I have time to go hunting for, anyway.
19:13   Liggy   I didn't heal Verm because me and Sauce thought poisonings were delayed
19:13   bird   shh arent u dead
19:13   Thiannon   I thought it was really clear!
19:13   Thiannon   If kind of stupid.
19:13   bird   I was so mad about that
19:13   bird   The worst part was
19:13   Liggy   wait am I dead
19:14   bird   I reread all my posts and you could have interpreted all of them either way
19:14   bird   As in, you couldn't tell that I had misunderstood the way poisons worke
19:14   bird   d
19:14   Liggy   DFdjskjlfkdsfks
19:14   Liggy   DANG IT
19:14   Liggy   fml
19:14   bird   sorry breh
19:14   Liggy   ignore my comment
19:14   bird   it wasn't me
19:14   bird   even though i would have if i were a wolf
19:16      *** fank009 joined #TWGNSM
19:16   Thiannon   who we wolf tonight?
19:16   Thiannon   Oh crap.
19:16   fank009   ...
19:16   fank009   got you
19:16   Thiannon   COME ON
19:17   Liggy   this is the first phase I have any opinion and I'm dead!
19:17   Liggy   oh well
19:17   fank009   xD
19:17   Liggy   bye
19:17      *** Liggy left #TWGNSM
19:17   fank009   my timing
19:18   bird   fank who are the wolfs
19:18   fank009   just when I come online...
19:18   fank009   to argue greg/thia combination
19:19   bird   greg/thia could be good
19:19   fank009   as I asked earlier, why was liggy killed over everyone else?
19:20   fank009   wouldnt greg leaning on my humanity be bad for you as a wolf bird??!
19:21   fank009   but does any of that matter when...
19:21   fank009   [13:16:38] <Thiannon> who we wolf tonight?
19:22   fank009   unless im on the wrong line of thought
19:22      *** Liggy joined #TWGNSM
19:22      +++ ChanServ has given owner to Liggy
19:22      +++ ChanServ has given op to Liggy
19:23   Thiannon   It's an old joke from LLF, fank.
19:24   fank009   logs
19:24   Thiannon   A wolf meant to PM his partner that and inadvertently posted it in the topic instead.
19:24   fank009   from earlier
19:24   Thiannon   Bird, can you send them to him? I have to go.

[close]

I've bolded a few relevant parts.

1. fank - Unreadable, essentially plays the same way as a human or a wolf. Everyone else looks more human than he does, though. I thought his determination not to die earlier in the game argued for his humanity, and I still think it does, but his suicide in that earlier wolf game seems like it might have been an anomaly for him (a really poor read/weird case of mafia nobility or something).
2. BDS - Still seems pretty human to me, but I can't really say why, and everyone else actually has tangible evidence pointing to his humanity.
3. Bird - Bird wolf tells: "I'm not that dumb as a wolf!"; targeting me in lynches; seeming vaguely upset about everything. He was my top suspicion before chatting with him today, but his last few posts have looked really human. Of course, he'd probably throw up the giant stop sign as a wolf too--and the last time he was a wolf and I was a human on NSM, he did a nice job heading off my suspicions just as they were coming to a head. I dunno. A Bird/FA pairing makes me really uncomfortable.
4. FA - If Bird's a wolf, he's probably his partner. (I'm not buying the idea that Bird wouldn't defend his partner so much at this point; if they're wolves together, they only need to survive one lynch.) But Bird's point about that early post about Nocturne is really persuasive. Super-early-game, I think wolves are often very apprehensive. People expect to be human, get a wolf role, and don't know what to do with themselves (or hesitate because they want to consult with their partners). Ergo, analyzing really early-game posts is a good way to spot mid-tier human players.
5. Greg - I stated most of my points about him as a human above. I still think offering to fall on the bomb is a great wolf strategy, and that some players (verm, maybe Bird) would have done it. But the more I see of Greg, the less I think he's that guy.

Let's break down those key points.

18:49   Thiannon   Well, you and FireArrow were my one-two, but now I'm doubting both of you.

Not only did I state this in my suspicion list, I stated it directly to Bird. I didn't just make this up on the spot.

Additionally, I had no reason to make this point. If I wanted to target fank or BDS, there was no reason for me to tell Bird this, no reason for me to lead in with my initial suspicion of him and FA in my suspicion list.

18:52   bird   Both verm and I independently determined FA was human based off his response to NocturneofShadow's "so the mechanic is suicide?" post.
18:52   Thiannon   Yeah, I totally forgot about that post.

Bird raises a valid point about FA I hadn't considered (my suspicion him derived from his verm bombing, mainly). Regardless of whether you believe this point is valid, I hope you can concede that my appreciation of it was reasonable, as my following comments (above) indicate.

18:55   bird   He was basically bragging about all the people he wasn't compatible with!

A really interesting point against fank that I hadn't considered before--this is the sort of strategy I'd expect from fank as a wolf.

18:55   bird   BDS and you have both defended each other to some degree
18:55   bird   It's not an awful combination
18:56   bird   Oh another reason FA can't be a wolf
18:56   Thiannon   Yeah, he's probably my best pairing.
...
18:57   Thiannon   http://www.ninsheetm.us/smf/index.php?topic=5956.msg232512#msg232512
18:57   Thiannon   BDS's suspicion list there would basically have been mine too.
18:58   Thiannon   And I'm conveniently placed right in the middle of it!

Bird and I discuss my pairing with BDS. This is what my "shipping" comment was referring to.

19:00   bird   What do you think of Fank?
19:01   Thiannon   I'm not going to lie--I basically just skim his posts.
19:01   Thiannon   Both times he's been a wolf I thought he was human, though.
19:01   Thiannon   fank/Maestro makes sense, too.

Here you can see I'm coming around on fank.

19:08   bird   Which is another mark in FireArrow's favor. Why would he wolf somebody who he was convinced was a wolf? Greg was a lot more of an obvious human from his point of view.

And finally some more evidence in support of FireArrow.

Throughout this entire conversation, Bird was extremely reasonable--more reasonable than he had been previously. Coupled with his post here and what I thought was a pretty reasonable suspicion list (supported by his chat comments), I found myself revising my own list. I posted this:

1. fank - Unreadable, essentially plays the same way as a human or a wolf. Everyone else looks more human than he does, though. I thought his determination not to die earlier in the game argued for his humanity, and I still think it does, but his suicide in that earlier wolf game seems like it might have been an anomaly for him (a really poor read/weird case of mafia nobility or something).
2. BDS - Still seems pretty human to me, but I can't really say why, and everyone else actually has tangible evidence pointing to his humanity.
3. Bird - Bird wolf tells: "I'm not that dumb as a wolf!"; targeting me in lynches; seeming vaguely upset about everything. He was my top suspicion before chatting with him today, but his last few posts have looked really human. Of course, he'd probably throw up the giant stop sign as a wolf too--and the last time he was a wolf and I was a human on NSM, he did a nice job heading off my suspicions just as they were coming to a head. I dunno. A Bird/FA pairing makes me really uncomfortable.
4. FA - If Bird's a wolf, he's probably his partner. (I'm not buying the idea that Bird wouldn't defend his partner so much at this point; if they're wolves together, they only need to survive one lynch.) But Bird's point about that early post about Nocturne is really persuasive. Super-early-game, I think wolves are often very apprehensive. People expect to be human, get a wolf role, and don't know what to do with themselves (or hesitate because they want to consult with their partners). Ergo, analyzing really early-game posts is a good way to spot mid-tier human players.
5. Greg - I stated most of my points about him as a human above. I still think offering to fall on the bomb is a great wolf strategy, and that some players (verm, maybe Bird) would have done it. But the more I see of Greg, the less I think he's that guy.

What a lot of people seem to be ignoring is the fact that I was highly equivocal on both fank and BDS, and hardly dismissive of Bird and FA. When everyone looks pretty human, your suspicion list can change quickly, significantly, and with even the slightest change in your evaluation of one or two players.

Then yesterday morning I posted this:

All right, I have a lot to say but no time to say it. But I am thinking now that it makes more sense to lynch one of FA/Bird and then re-evaluate next day as to whether we kill the other one or one of BDS/fank. If it's fank or BDS, his partner is probably already dead (i.e. Maestro).

This probably won't placate the Thiannon/BDS shippers, but whatever.

It was 5 AM, I was on my way in to work, I had no time to substantiate anything or respond to anyone. But I did have a mild panic attack. I thought my thinking was obvious, but it wasn't, clearly. If Bird and FA are the wolves and we lynch one of BDS or fank, we lose. If one of BDS or fank is a wolf (the idea of the two of them together wasn't something I'd thought about at length at that point), we can afford to mislynch today and get one of them tomorrow. I was worried that a human would go in on one of fank or BDS and we'd lose before we'd even have time to consider things further.

And... that's my TWG time for this afternoon. I'll try to get on tonight. Thanks for the extension, Waddle.

[fank009]

Ah, so thats where the shipping comment comes from

xD, trying to stop bird (yet failing) to make a case against your humanity???