TWG LIII: All the King's Men

[Yugi]

Nothing's changed in their playstyle so
Yugi

Wait, what?

Your're voting me because my playstyle's the same as normal?

That makes no sense.

[Yugi]

NOT SUSPICIOUS AT ALL.

IT WAS A TYPO OKAY

[Bird]

BDS can confirm I supported a Waddle lynch, but not in the event the lynch seemed to be gaining consensus. You should know very well that that's how I've been treating Day 1 since the debacle in your first LLF festival game. My suspicion of Dude was mostly BS because I wanted to see him actually contribute something to the thread, which he has still yet to do. Seriously, he hasn't made a single post of substance, yet everyone else in this game refuses to consider him the least bit suspicious! I guess this is just how he plays? If so, it's frustrating, because we can't afford dead wood. I think both Waddle and wolf are human; I have to imagine wolf's wolf partners would have mandated he post at least enough to stay alive.


In case what I just said is unclear, I'll reiterate: my initial suspicion of Dude was pretty minor, and I put him at the top of my list to try to goad him into contributing. The fact that it didn't work raised my concern, but I still preferred to lynch Waddle. Because I wasn't able to be here Friday night, I PMed BDS with this information and the caveat that if the momentum swung too heavily toward Waddle, he lynch someone else instead. Unfortunately my PM settings on NSM were not sent to save Sent Messages (they are now), so I don't have a copy of the PM. If BDS could post it in the topic, that would be great.

I've probably made some throwaway comments that look wolfy, but you of all people, Bird, should know that I don't much bother to try to look human in the thread (at least not when I'm a human). Usually I count on my contributions and my analysis to bear my humanity out. As for my frustration with you (and Mashi and verm to a lesser extent), how is that misplaced? I already pointed out that your "I'm not sure about this lynch..." comment was mincing and fraidy-cat by human Bird standards. There's no way you couldn't have stopped the Waddle lynch if you so chose. Blame me for not being here Friday night if you will, but I had plans--it's not as if I'm ever online Friday night, anyway.

Bird for now. This looks exactly like your play in Hunter's Walking Small game on LLF, complete with a garbage early-game suspicion of me.

Well I guess it was my fault for looking so human in Walking Small then. Here is the game Thiannon was talking about; he's Fiver, I'm Savvy-Sauce. It's a pretty short read.

I think it's dumb how I'm suspicious considering we've held the same suspicions and told BDS the same things. You said in your PM that Waddle was your top choice and didn't mention a good alternative. So did I. And you said in your PM that you were worried that Waddle was a human if the lynch picked up too much momentum. So did I:

I'm getting a tiny bit uncomfortable at the momentum that this Waddle Bro lynch is picking up, but I still can't think of anything better.

I don't know why you get to discard this as a "perfunctory post" that a wolf would make, yet your PM which says the exact same thing somehow clears you. As far as our statements and actions go, we're in the same boat, yet you're hounding me for it. That's suspicious. And the fact that I'm suspicious of you in this game and was suspicious of you in Walking Small shouldn't matter since there's a chance you're a wolf in this game. Saying "he always suspects me when he's a wolf" isn't valid, since wolves and humans can say it. On top of all of that, quit acting like the Waddle lynch was this huge mistake (that was mostly my fault). Waddle could still very easily be a wolf. He had like what, 5 votes by the end of the phase? That's far from a consensus, and since a lot of the votes came late, I could see one or two of the wolves joining in.

Stating the obvious isn't a very strong indication of your humanity, and I'm not going to let a strongly-worded retaliatory post bully me away from voting for my top suspcion: you. So the vote stays.

And that's worth pointing out how?

It's just really odd. What are the chances that your schedule magically clears immediately after you post saying your schedule is full and you need to drop out? Maybe a wolf partner of yours convinced you to keep playing. I think it's worth noting anyway. You can clear this up pretty easily by explaining everything that happened, I'm sure.

Also, I would prefer it if people would PM me (remember to send PMs to the host as well!) their top three suspicions, with reasons as to why they suspect them, so I can get a good idea of what everybody thinks (for... certain reasons...).

This is a great idea. Everyone do this. I know gzg suggested it earlier, but after that last day phase it seems like a way better idea. So props to you both, I suppose.

[fank009]

Wait, what?

Your're voting me because my playstyle's the same as normal?

That makes no sense.

I dont know what your normal "playstyle" is. Im voting for you because you still havent contributed anything significant (that i feel) to the game, And i find that wolfish.

[Thiannon]

Yes, that's the PM--thanks BDS.

You're going to have to do a whole lot better than that, Bird. The difference between you and me re: the Waddle lynch is that you were here to stop it. I wasn't. Your post saying you were uncomfortable with the lynch was completely inconsequential. Why not go to BDS and urge him to look elsewhere? I've seen you as a human, and (much like me, actually) you just don't make posts whose only purpose is to make yourself look human, at least before the heat is on you.

I know I haven't been a wolf in forever, but do you ever recall my "bullying" people to get my way? Wolf Fiver is cautious and borderline inactive, and yes obviously I could change that profile, as evinced by the very fact that I've raised that issue now. But I think it still counts as a point in my favour.

People who aren't Bird: just because he called my post bullying doesn't make it so; there's some serious begging the question going on there.

Your post is a lot of blather that smacks of throwing stuff against the "let's lynch Thiannon" wall and hoping it will stick. People play differently as wolves. People play differently as humans. Just because we've suspected the same people (note: I was one of the first people to raise issues with Waddle) and said BDS similar things doesn't mean we should be commensurately suspicious. We play differently.

You seem awfully eager to lynch me despite the fact that the PM BDS posted trashed most of your arguments. Do you want to catch wolves, or do you just want me dead? (Side note: this is actually a point in your favour. I would have expected you to just wolf me rather than try to get me lynched.)

Damn, rereading this post it actually looks pretty wolfy. When I have more time (i.e. tomorrow night) I'll reread the topic and read the chat log. It's just been a busy few days.

[Liggy]

Everyone on should join the chat.  I'm going to get cookies, and I expect the chat to be full when I get back.  It's hard to determine who's a wolf through the thread, because everyone has plenty of time to think over their post and not screw up.  More pressure and less time in the chat.

[Bird]

Is there a word for the logical fallacy where you just call somebody's argument garbage (and now trash) without any evidence to support it? Because that's what you're doing!

I was here to stop it, but what reason did I have to do so? If every single person was in favor of the lynch, sure I would have said something a little more urgent. Or if Waddle came online and made a human defense. Or if somebody did something else which made me think they were more suspicious. But none of that happened. I didn't have an alternative to suggest to BDS, or any reason to think that Waddle might be human. Near 8:30 in the chat, I eventually just said fuck it and decided that the lynch should go through.

My post ("blather?" Come on, man.) was mostly in response to the points you raised against me. Namely that there was something I should have done to stop the lynch. Saying that I was throwing stuff against the "let's lynch Thiannon" wall is just a way of making what every single person does in TWG sound stupid. That's how you play TWG. You bring up things you think are odd or suspicious (throw it against the wall) and let people discuss it. If they agree (it sticks) that the behavior is suspicious, then they get lynched. I don't see what's so odd about that. If you think I'm suspicious, fine, whatever, but don't twist my words to justify your vote.

And I think you misunderstand me. Obviously, I don't think you're suspicious because we've done the same things. Because that would be me arguing that I'm suspicious as well. I think it's suspicious that you're using things we've both done to vote for me. That and a few other things, which I mentioned to BDS. You may have a point with regard to your human and wolf behaviors being different, but I also am relatively certain you're exaggerating that difference. Rest assured that I'll be comparing your current posts to your posts as a human and a wolf later tonight (after Game of Thrones of course).

That PM "trashing" most of my arguments? Oh please.

You're right about one thing though, I'm not playing in my typical human playstyle right now. The playstyle you're used to seeing anyway. I was boring and hesitant with regards to that lynch, rather than being passionate and fiery, going out on limbs and acting crazy for no real reason. I wish I could give you a simple answer as to why that is. I'd likely blame the fact that this game is extremely boring and the humans literally have no say in the way it proceeds. And I'd also like to point out that there are plenty of games where I acted that way as a wolf as well. But I think you'll see some of that fire and passion return as this argument continues to heat up, since I can't imagine you'll let me be despite the fact that we're probably both human.

[Liggy]

It's just really odd. What are the chances that your schedule magically clears immediately after you post saying your schedule is full and you need to drop out? Maybe a wolf partner of yours convinced you to keep playing. I think it's worth noting anyway. You can clear this up pretty easily by explaining everything that happened, I'm sure.

This is what kept me busy.  My teacher is selecting students from my class to go, and she's making the selection process really long and annoying.  However, I just get a packet detailing the procedures, and I found out that about 2/3rds of my school's Japanese program is likely able to go, so I realized I didn't need to spend nearly as much effort.

As to the Thiannon/Bird debacle, both of them seem pretty human to me.  Thiannon gets negative points for trying meta himself, and I give him enough credit to understand that the second you try to meta yourself it becomes useless.  (If you tell everyone your conscious of your patterns, you're going to exploit them to your gain).  However, that's not really enough for me to support a lynch of his.

I'm still not sure who I suspect the most out of everyone, as I've mentioned numerous times that it's hard for me to read people in the thread.  Additionally, each time I see something I find suspicious, everyone else says that that's typical human behavior for them.

[fank009]

Together, these two posts set off a few alarms...  yet his choice for the lynch was Dude, who has even less evidence against him than Waddle did.

Also, I think it was weird that Liggy is dropping out and then like ten minutes later he's not busy anymore.

And I guess I was totally wrong about Mashi, whoops!

-Sometimes less is more bird.

-Liggy dropping out and not being busy is NOT scummy, (but his 1st post is imo)

-Thanks for apologizing to mashi, im sure he would appreciate it.

My suspicion of Dude was mostly BS because I wanted to see him actually contribute something to the thread, which he has still yet to do. Seriously, he hasn't made a single post of substance, yet everyone else in this game refuses to consider him the least bit suspicious! I guess this is just how he plays? If so, it's frustrating, because we can't afford dead wood.

I think both Waddle and wolf are human; I have to imagine wolf's wolf partners would have mandated he post at least enough to stay alive.



I've probably made some throwaway comments that look wolfy, but you of all people, Bird, should know that I don't much bother to try to look human in the thread (at least not when I'm a human). Usually I count on my contributions and my analysis to bear my humanity out.

-hmm, Your sort of right that Dude has sort of slipped by the radar (from what we can see) Doesnt help we only have 5-8 people really contributing to it, (but still he slips by???)

-Hmmm, wolf being human? interesting thought, Waddle being human? I cant base anything on meta, But this may turnout to be truth as we get later on in the game.

-A man of my own heart.

I wish I could give you a simple answer as to why that is. I'd likely blame the fact that this game is extremely boring and the humans literally have no say in the way it proceeds. And I'd also like to point out that there are plenty of games where I acted that way as a wolf as well. But I think you'll see some of that fire and passion return as this argument continues to heat up, since I can't imagine you'll let me be despite the fact that we're probably both human.

So we shouldnt scum hunt, but let BDS decide base on "feelings"?
BDS has said earlier on that he will let us decide the lynch, yet (from what i get) you think he holds "ALL" the power??? your right in the sense, that Humans have no reason to veto the vote, (unless BDS goes off his conker all of the sudden). This maybe something im misinterpreting..

-If you think That Thia is human, Why arent you showing "telltale" signs of it???

This is what kept me busy.  My teacher is selecting students from my class to go, and she's making the selection process really long and annoying.  However, I just get a packet detailing the procedures, and I found out that about 2/3rds of my school's Japanese program is likely able to go, so I realized I didn't need to spend nearly as much effort.

As to the Thiannon/Bird debacle, both of them seem pretty human to me.  Thiannon gets negative points for trying meta himself, and I give him enough credit to understand that the second you try to meta yourself it becomes useless.  (If you tell everyone your conscious of your patterns, you're going to exploit them to your gain).  However, that's not really enough for me to support a lynch of his.

I'm still not sure who I suspect the most out of everyone, as I've mentioned numerous times that it's hard for me to read people in the thread.  Additionally, each time I see something I find suspicious, everyone else says that that's typical human behavior for them.

LIGGY, Welcome to the game, I still dont understand why it took more than 5 (real) days to think of something to put your thoughts on (maybe its taken 5 days for something reasonable to put our thoughts on??? xD)

-Town points for giving a "valid" excuse. Still doesnt make that 1st post unfishy

-Is that a lynch for thia or bird? I feel like leaning to thia for self metaing is a bad reason, its like me saying

Im playing scummy, and fanks meta says scummy = town so i must be town

Would you vote for me due to me "self meta"

-Liggy, reading people takes time... And Of course its Wolves job to say "but thats my normal human behaviour"

[Bird]

-If you think That Thia is human, Why arent you showing "telltale" signs of it???

I just said that because of the probabilities. I'm suspicious of him, but there's still a ~60% chance he's human.

[TheZeldaPianist275]

Just so everybody knows, I'm back.  Since apparently we're leaning away from suspicion lists, I'll send a pm your way, BDS.

Bird and Thiannon, your posts are raising their voices, if you know what I mean.  Stop poisoning the well (Bird, the fallacy is called Ad Hominem Abusive) and respond to each other more straightforwardly.  There's a whole lot of swagger in both those posts.

Also, yay, more newb question: What does "meta" mean?

[fank009]

Also, yay, more newb question: What does "meta" mean?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metagaming

[Bird]

I think Liggy was more using the term to describe Thiannon's multiple levels of analysis. As in, Thiannon is pointing out that his behavior doesn't follow his wolf behavior, then points out that since he knew that, he could change his behavior to look more human.

[Bird]

Also, even though I think sending your true suspicions into the host is a great way to tell him who you truly suspect, I definitely do not think we should stop discussing the game here in the thread. If we stop discussing it publicly, then BDS and his alliance members are on their own, and any information revealed through posts or discussion is thrown away. So everyone, feel free to weigh in on any of the things Thiannon or I have said, what you think of the Waddle lynch, Mashi wolfing, etc.

[TheZeldaPianist275]

I honestly don't know what to make of you and Thiannon right now.  Mostly because I'm so tired; mountain biking was awesome though.  Tomorrow my thoughts may be clearer.

The Mashi wolfing?  Out of everyone, he contributed information that was arguably the least important.  So why did they hit an inactive?

...yeah, I'm sorry.  I got nothing right now.  Tomorrow.