TWG XLVI: Have it Your Way

[Bubbles]

Fixed 

Also, I'm having some funny feelings about Bird. He's being hasty, voting for SocialFox only 10 minutes after the phase ends, without saying anything but "he was weird last phase." O...K? No examples, no explanations of why this makes him a wolf, and no realization that he's been weird before when he was a human.

"I may be quick to vote for him, but you two are quick to defend him."

We were quick to defend him because you were quick to vote on him. And it wasn't really a defense either. Just us suggesting that you slow the heck down.

Bird

Phase extensions are unfair to the wolves. Humans have a bad habit of waiting around until the last few minutes of the phase, which is one of the reasons I always try and vote early.

Bird, Im assuming that this was a TWC post, or just clarifying rules or something? Otherwise it sounds really suspicious. Why would you care about the wolves?

My top 3 would probably be blue, bird, and the inactives (K-night, shadowkirby, Dude) Because I dont want to insta someone since I wont be here until the phase ends, Ill vote Dude

Also Maestro lol

[spitllama]

Why would you care about the wolves?

Cause he's TWC?



I think we should seer Liggy, cause very few of us know how to read him.

I'm going to counter MaestroUGC with a petty vote of my own. But on him. So clever.

[Bubbles]

Cause he's TWC?

Thats what I thought but I was just confirming

[Bird]

I would probably use bold red text for a TWC post. You can take it however you like, but I probably would have complained privately to the host if I were a wolf.

[vermilionvermin]

Here's what I have of the log.  There's a little bit missing but I don't think much of it was important anyways!  Mashi said he had it though so that's good.  Bolded parts are important.

18:57   Liggy   so
18:58   bird   so i suspect verm
18:58   bird   enemy of my enemy!!!
18:58   Liggy   but
18:58   Liggy   nighthawk is a good enough wolf to suspect wolf partners
19:01   Vermilionvermin   hi i'm back
19:01   bird   i think if he's [verm] a wolf, tzp is almost certainly not
19:01   bird   since he seemed to be really trying to bring a lynch about him
19:01   Liggy   hi verm
19:01   bird   and he's a new player so doing that would be a big d1 risk
19:01   Liggy   idk
19:01   Vermilionvermin   sauce why am i a wolf
19:01   Liggy   confirmation bias
19:01   bird   hey what
19:01   Liggy   (partially)
19:01   bird   (6:42:52 PM) Liggy: I support a seering of NH tonight though.
19:01   bird   (6:43:06 PM) Liggy: and anyone who opposes is silly
19:02   Liggy   
19:02   Liggy   I was exaggerating
19:02   Liggy   I was saying really only the first one was.
19:02   Vermilionvermin   Is there reason to lynch someone other than blueflower?
19:03   Vermilionvermin   we could just go w/ an inactive
19:03   Liggy   uh yeah
19:03   Liggy   is there reason to lynch blueflower?
19:03   Vermilionvermin   but i don't think any of them will be significantly less active than blueflower
19:03   Vermilionvermin   well last game blueflower was a wolf
19:03   Liggy   so
19:03   Vermilionvermin   and he acted kinda similarly to how he's behaving this game!
19:04   Vermilionvermin   the only day 1 contribution i remember was him defending bds against a shitty accusation
19:04   Liggy   well
19:04   Liggy   okay
19:04   Vermilionvermin   and then he eventually voted for bds
19:04   Vermilionvermin   he seemed kind of upset about how poorly he performed that game so maybe he isn't a wolf?
19:06   Vermilionvermin   Between Blueflower and tzp i'd prefer blu because something about one of tzp's post seemed super human to me
19:06   Vermilionvermin   let me find it
19:06   Vermilionvermin   shadowkirby would be a fine lynch
19:07   Vermilionvermin   and his votes are super wolfy imo
19:07   Vermilionvermin   a bandwagon and then a safety when sauce calls him out on it
19:08   Liggy   eh
19:08   Liggy   I suppose.
19:08   bird   but blueflower999 is going to be human and everyone is going to be blame me and they'll be like 'SORRY SAUCE IT WAS YOUR FAULT WE COULDNT STOP YOU'
19:08   Liggy   These are all really wishy-washy lynched though!
19:08   Vermilionvermin   what are all wishy-washy lynched?
19:08   Vera   I won't say that, Sauce!!!
19:09   bird   ty vera
19:09   Vermilionvermin   i think http://www.ninsheetm.us/smf/index.php?topic=5214.msg187826#msg187826 was it
19:10   Vermilionvermin   It just seems human to me
19:10   Vermilionvermin   so if you had to rank the three potential lynches, what would they be?
19:10   Vermilionvermin   the three being tzp shadow and blueflower
19:10   Vermilionvermin   unless you've got a better idea
19:10   Vermilionvermin   My rank is shadow > blue > tzp
19:11   Vermilionvermin   also http://www.ninsheetm.us/smf/index.php?topic=5214.msg188104#msg188104

19:11   Liggy   whoops
19:11   Liggy   wishy-washy lynches*
19:12   Liggy   hrm
19:12   Liggy   tzp = shadow > blue
19:13   Liggy   and that >
19:13   Liggy   is a >>>>>>
19:13   Vermilionvermin   why is it that many >>>>>> s?
19:13   Vera   blueflower999 = TheZeldaPianist > shadowkirby, though, I suppose I would be okay with a shadowkirby lynch.
19:14   Liggy   because at this point if blue is lynched I will 
19:14   Vermilionvermin   what if blue flips green
19:14   Vermilionvermin   ?
19:14   Vera   then
19:14   Liggy   er?
19:14   Vera   hell be purple
19:14   Liggy   okay
19:15   Liggy   so
19:15   Liggy   if blue is green
19:15   Vermilionvermin   liggy, why are you assuming blueflower will flip red?
19:15   Liggy   hell is purple
19:15   Liggy   I am not assuming anything?
19:15   Vermilionvermin   19:14 Liggy because at this point if blue is lynched I will
19:15   Vermilionvermin   This wouldn't happen if blueflower flips green
19:15   Liggy   er
19:15   Liggy   yeah it would
19:16   Liggy   it wouldn't happen if blue flips red
19:16   Liggy   I said I think blue is a human.
19:17   Vermilionvermin   I'm probably going to lynch you if blue flips red and you defended him like this
19:17   bird   oh there's cardflipping
19:17   Liggy   thx
19:17   bird   man its a great day to be human
19:17   Liggy   well nh
19:17   Liggy   I'm defending him
19:17   Liggy   because
19:17   Liggy   what evidence do we have against him
19:17   Liggy   I honestly think the bandwagoning evidence is stronger
19:17   Vermilionvermin   he's acting pretty similar to how he did as a wolf
19:17   Liggy   because the defending isn't that incriminating
19:17   Liggy   well
19:18   Vermilionvermin   and he didn't respond to my lynch against you which was way dumber than the one against sf?
19:18   Liggy   hrm
19:18   Liggy   well
19:18   Liggy   sf everyone thinks is human
19:18   Liggy   so what exactly does that say
19:18   Liggy   and the first thing you said means nothing to me
19:18   Liggy   because I can't ascertain that.
19:19   Vermilionvermin   but why are you so sure he isn't a wolf then?
19:20   Liggy   I'm not sure
19:20   Liggy   there's just better options
19:20   Liggy   and I don't want to see a lynch wasted!
19:20   bird   lets lynch blue again i've made up my mind
19:20   Liggy   although
19:20   Liggy   everyone else seems to suspect blue more
19:20   Liggy   so not much I can do
19:21   Liggy   It's just that I can't compare him to previous wolf preformances.
19:21   Liggy   and there's a perfectly valid reason why he wouldn't defend me
19:21   Liggy   you were yelling at him for defending social
19:21   Liggy   so he was scared
19:21   bird   i think blue and verm would make good partners
19:21   Liggy   (believe or not, humans also try to avoid suspicion)
19:22   Vermilionvermin   Humans shouldn't go out of their way to avoid suspicion
19:22   Liggy   shouldn't do something they know is suspicious though
19:22   Vermilionvermin   That's why Shadowkirby is suspicious!
19:23   bird   shadowkirby is just a bad player though
19:23   bird   he does stuff liket his all the time
19:23   Liggy   jeez nighthawk I think we've been through this before
19:23   Liggy   if a person would be equally suspicious if they hadn't done what made them susipicious
19:23   Liggy   the suspicion makes no sense
19:23   Vermilionvermin   i'm not sure how this applies to shadowkirby and blueflower
19:24   Liggy   well
19:24   Liggy   you're suspicious of shadow for changing his vote
19:24   Liggy   when you would've been suspicious of him if he didn't too, probably
19:24   Liggy   likewise you're suspicious of blue for not defending me
19:24   Liggy   but you probably would've been suspicious of him if he did
19:24   Liggy   
19:25   Vermilionvermin   No I'm not.
19:25   Liggy   oh
19:25   Vermilionvermin   sorry i said that wrong
19:25   Liggy   then I'm misunderstanding you
19:25   Liggy   mb
19:25   Vermilionvermin   I would be less suspicious of him if he didn't
19:25   Vermilionvermin   Because bandwagoning is standard shadowkirby fare
19:25   Vermilionvermin   This is not.
19:25   Vermilionvermin   This is a deliberate attempt to avoid suspicion
19:26   Vermilionvermin   which is either bad human play or bad wolf play
19:26   Vermilionvermin   I've seen less of shadowkirby as a wolf
19:26   Vermilionvermin   also socialfox told us the wrong phase end time
19:26   Liggy   hold uo
19:26   Liggy   up*
19:26   Vermilionvermin   I think we have until tomorrow
19:26   Vermilionvermin   but like mid-day tomorrow
19:27   bird   sf was accurate
19:27   bird   since tbwcw said 9 hours from now approximately 3 hours ago
19:27   Vermilionvermin   well then tbwcw was wrong!
19:27   bird   http://www.ninsheetm.us/smf/index.php?topic=5214.msg188040#msg188040
19:27   bird   I thought so
19:27   Liggy   well
19:27   Vermilionvermin   http://www.ninsheetm.us/smf/index.php?topic=5214.msg187716#msg187716
19:28   Liggy   shoot
19:28   Vermilionvermin   original day phase end is 9 pm on thursday
19:28   Liggy   I forgot what I was going to say!
19:28   bird   well
19:28   Vermilionvermin   on tbwcw's time
19:28   bird   9pm GMT+0
19:28   Vermilionvermin   which is http://wwp.greenwichmeantime.com/
19:28   Liggy   gmt is 5 hours ahead of eastern
19:28   bird   yeah
19:28   bird   it's like 3:00 in the afternoon
19:28   Vermilionvermin   it's 3 am for him now
19:28   Liggy   so
19:28   Liggy   1 pm thursday for nighthawk
19:28   Liggy   4 pm thursday for me
19:28   Vermilionvermin   so that's a relief
19:28   Liggy   yeah this is probably the last time I'll be on.
19:29   Vermilionvermin   after tonight i'll have school so i won't be able to talk
19:29   Liggy   I'll be able to check the thread and pms tomorrow morning though
19:29   Vermilionvermin   so assume we're deciding a lynch tonight
19:29   Vermilionvermin   if i don't forget i can do the same
19:29   Liggy   so if a stunning revelation occurs make sure to notify me via nsm/llf
19:30   Liggy   anyways nighthawk I suppose this is making sense
19:30   Liggy   but most of the arguments you have against these people is that "this isn't normally how they act"
19:30   Liggy   and yeah
19:31   Liggy   I have no way of knowing that without you telling me
19:31   Liggy   and when you do I have no way of telling how different it is!
19:31   Liggy   so everyone seems a lot less suspicious to me
19:32      *** Fox joined #TWGNSM
19:32   Fox   Hello
19:33   Liggy   hi
19:33   Vermilionvermin   rank tzp, blueflower, liggy, and shadowkirby in terms of suspicion
19:33   bird   blueflowe liggy tzp shadowkirby
19:33   Liggy   thx guys
19:33   Liggy   liggy is most suspicious
19:33   Liggy   rest don't matter
19:33   bird   sry ur bein a mayor dotour
19:34   Liggy   but I guess
19:34   Vermilionvermin   for me it's shadowkirby > liggy > blue > tzp
19:34   Fox   liggy blue tzp
19:34   Liggy   shadow > blue > tzp > liggy
19:34   Vermilionvermin   wait why is tzp less suspicious than blue now?
19:34   Vermilionvermin   @liggy
19:34   Fox   oops i meant liggy blue tzp and shadowkirby.
19:34   Liggy   because
19:35   Liggy   you've convinced me that blue is more suspicious than I previously thought.
19:35   Liggy   also I still have no idea what I'm doing that's suspicious
19:35   Liggy   someone explain it to me again
19:35   Liggy   shouldn't be too hard
19:35   Vermilionvermin   weird opinion on blue
19:35   Vermilionvermin   especially when you thought the phase was ending sooner than it is
19:36   bird   liggy i feel like you're being really hesitant and using your newness as an excuse to not form decent suspicions
19:36   bird   sort of coasting through the game, which is unlike you
19:36   Liggy   oh nice
19:36   Liggy   two completely different answers
19:36   Liggy   (not sarcasm)
19:37   Liggy   nighthawk's makes the least amount of sense
19:37   Liggy   so let's start there
19:37   Liggy   ahem
19:37   Liggy   How does holding a contrary opinion make me a wolf?
19:37   Liggy   done
19:37   Vermilionvermin   It's not contrary, it's silly.
19:38   Liggy   @Sauce:
19:38   Vermilionvermin   Your opinion on blueflower had him as surprisingly less suspicious
19:38   Vermilionvermin   especially based on the criteria for shadowkirby being suspicious
19:38   Liggy   If you remove the references from past games in Nighthawk's reasonings
19:38   Liggy   they make no sense
19:39   Liggy   well
19:39   Liggy   not a whole lot of sense
19:39   Vermilionvermin   Then you should have inquired as to the reasoning, not said they don't make any sense and said that you don't want to lynch him
19:40      *** BlackDragonSlayer joined #TWGNSM
19:41   BlackDragonSlayer   I can only stay for a few minutes.
19:41   Fox   hi BS
19:41   Liggy   er
19:41   Vermilionvermin   okay
19:41   bird   who are you currently voting for BlackDragonSlayer
19:41   Vermilionvermin   quick give us your top 3 suspicions
19:41   BlackDragonSlayer   Vermilionvermin, Bird, SocialFox... or possibly TZP
19:41   Fox   NOT QUICK ENOUGH.
19:42   bird   (9:41:18 PM) bird: who are you currently voting for BlackDragonSlayer
19:42   BlackDragonSlayer   *blueflower, not TZP
19:42   BlackDragonSlayer   Vermilionvermin
19:42   bird   oh yeah
19:42   bird   well, no complaints there
19:42   Vermilionvermin   why am i suspicious bds?

19:43   Fox   And Why am *I* suspicious
19:43   BlackDragonSlayer   *reading over previous posts*
19:44   BlackDragonSlayer   Changing your vote is one thing, plus the lack of other major suspicions.]
19:44   Vermilionvermin   why is changing my vote suspicious?
19:44   BlackDragonSlayer   Because of who you voted for.
19:44   BlackDragonSlayer   From Liggy to TZP
19:44   Liggy   ...
19:45   Vermilionvermin   yes but why does that make me more likely to be a wolf?
19:45   Liggy   anyways
19:45   Liggy   my vote is on blue
19:45   Liggy   right now
19:45   BlackDragonSlayer   I said "suspicious"... as I said previously, on the topic itself, that doesn't necessaily mean that I think they ARE wolves, especially at this point.
19:46   Liggy   and at this point I don't have a strong enough opinion of anyone to really prefer one over the other
19:46   Liggy   so I'll leave it
19:46   BlackDragonSlayer   Though, at this point, they might be people to "keep an eye on."
19:46   Liggy   maybe change it tomorrow morning
19:46      *** Liggy quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.89 [Firefox 17.0.1/20121128204232])
19:53   Vermilionvermin   does anyone have parts of this log before i came back?
19:53   Vermilionvermin   bird/mashi
19:54   bird   um
19:54   Mashi   Yeah.
19:54   Mashi   I think I have all of it.
19:54   Vermilionvermin   all right
19:54   Vermilionvermin   some of it got cut off for me
19:54   bird   none of it is really important!
19:54   BlackDragonSlayer   Whenever I try to Copy/Paste from Mibbit, the format is always messed up. :S
19:55   Vermilionvermin   yes but i like to have the whole thing
19:55   BlackDragonSlayer   Well, goodbye...
19:55      *** BlackDragonSlayer quit (Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client)
19:55   Fox   have good nightmares
20:00   Fox   Maestro voted for me
20:00   Fox   
20:06      *** Fox quit (Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client)

Super important stuff is bolded, underlined, and italicized.  Stuff I think should be read is just bolded.  Fleshing out a more in-depth Liggy vote in a few.

[vermilionvermin]

Quoting from the log, here's why I find Liggy really suspicious.

19:02   Vermilionvermin   Is there reason to lynch someone other than blueflower?
19:03   Vermilionvermin   we could just go w/ an inactive
19:03   Liggy   uh yeah
19:03   Liggy   is there reason to lynch blueflower?
19:03   Vermilionvermin   but i don't think any of them will be significantly less active than blueflower
19:03   Vermilionvermin   well last game blueflower was a wolf
19:03   Liggy   so
19:03   Vermilionvermin   and he acted kinda similarly to how he's behaving this game!
19:04   Vermilionvermin   the only day 1 contribution i remember was him defending bds against a shitty accusation
19:04   Liggy   well
19:04   Liggy   okay
19:04   Vermilionvermin   and then he eventually voted for bds
19:04   Vermilionvermin   he seemed kind of upset about how poorly he performed that game so maybe he isn't a wolf?

This is where I explain that blueflower is suspicious because his defense of bds is similar to his previous performance as a wolf.

19:12   Liggy   tzp = shadow > blue
19:13   Liggy   and that >
19:13   Liggy   is a >>>>>>

Notice the timing of this.  It's at the beginning of the log.  This is after I've already explained both in the thread and the log that blueflower's suspicious because his behavior this game is similar to how he behaved last game.

19:30   Liggy   anyways nighthawk I suppose this is making sense
19:30   Liggy   but most of the arguments you have against these people is that "this isn't normally how they act"
19:30   Liggy   and yeah
19:31   Liggy   I have no way of knowing that without you telling me
19:31   Liggy   and when you do I have no way of telling how different it is!
19:31   Liggy   so everyone seems a lot less suspicious to me

This is pretty dodgy defense. So basically, he's saying that blueflower is a little bit suspicious, but that he should be excused for not understanding that because he wasn't familiar with Blueflower's previous performance as a wolf.  But when he says he really doesn't want to lynch blueflower, he's already seen the logic against blueflower.


Now look at two of his defenses for Blueflower:

19:19   Vermilionvermin   but why are you so sure he isn't a wolf then?
19:20   Liggy   I'm not sure
19:20   Liggy   there's just better options
19:20   Liggy   and I don't want to see a lynch wasted!

19:45   Liggy   anyways
19:45   Liggy   my vote is on blue
19:45   Liggy   right now
19:46   Liggy   and at this point I don't have a strong enough opinion of anyone to really prefer one over the other
19:46   Liggy   so I'll leave it

I think it's weird that he goes from there being better options that are way more suspicious than blueflower to not really caring what happens.  I think Blueflower's probably green and Liggy's probably a wolf.

19:38   Vermilionvermin   Your opinion on blueflower had him as surprisingly less suspicious
19:38   Vermilionvermin   especially based on the criteria for shadowkirby being suspicious
19:38   Liggy   If you remove the references from past games in Nighthawk's reasonings
19:38   Liggy   they make no sense
19:39   Liggy   well
19:39   Liggy   not a whole lot of sense
19:39   Vermilionvermin   Then you should have inquired as to the reasoning, not said they don't make any sense and said that you don't want to lynch him

Rather than looking further into Blueflower's previous behavior, Liggy simply says it isn't suspicious.  Regardless of Blueflower's role, it seems like Liggy's trying to defend him, not determine whether or not he's actually a wolf.  What makes this more suspicious is the fact that Liggy thought the phase ended earlier than it did.  This is significant because Blueflower was the person most likely to be lynched that day.  This makes him look more human and he can say "I told you so!" the next day and look human for it.

Grah this didn't turn out like i planned, it's too nebulous.  Going to type out an even more consolidated version of this and post it.  Preferably in number form.  You can probably refer to this if necessary.

[vermilionvermin]

Why Liggy's defense of Blueflower is Wolfy

1.  He's more dedicated to defending blueflower than finding out whether he's a wolf or not.  (19:13 and 19:39 on the log really drive this point home). - MOST IMPORTANT POINT OF THE WHOLE THING, ANYTHING ELSE I HAVE IS SECONDARY TO THIS.

2.  He's oddly certain that lynching blueflower will cause him to be lynched (19:14), which implies that he knows that blueflower will flip red.

3.  I'm not sure how to reconcile this with point 2, but he also thought the phase ended earlier than it actually does.  This would make sense if blueflower's green because defending a human makes a person look human usually. 

4.  Basically the first point of my last post.  After I tell him that blueflower is suspicious (19:03), he is still strongly against lynching him (19:12).  Later on (19:30), he says that my accusation makes sense and that he's willing to lynch blueflower as a result.  But even when he was staunchly against the blueflower lynch, he still had heard the reasoning against blueflower.

5.  He doesn't evaluate shadowkirby and blueflower by the same standard.  I say that blueflower is partially suspicious for not defending Liggy.  Liggy responds that this is not suspicious because it's perfectly reasonable for a human blueflower to want to avoid being lynched (19:21).  But he's willing to lynch shadowkirby (19:12).  This could be because shadowkirby bandwagons the blueflower lynch, but the much stronger reason why shadowkirby is suspicious is the fact that he takes off his vote in order to seem less suspicious.  Basically, he's willing to discount blueflower's previous wolf tendencies but not shadowkirby's previous human bandwagoning tendencies.  He's willing to say that blueflower isn't suspicious for wanting to avoid being lynched, but doesn't give shadowkirby that same benefit of the doubt.

[spitllama]

So by this reasoning are you supporting lynching Liggy or Blueflower? What you're saying works for both. I think that if
Liggy is worried about blue flipping red, like you said, it would make sense to lynch blue and let the color speak for itself. Liggy could be MW for all we know-- there's been no evidence like this that suggests he'll flip red. I don't think that it would be wise to take him first.

[vermilionvermin]

I'd prefer Liggy over blueflower, as I could see Liggy defending blueflower to look human when he flipped green.

[vermilionvermin]

I double-checked my counting.

Socialfox- BlackDragonSlayer, Liggy, BDS
Bird- Socialfox, Blueflower
Blueflower-Bird, K-Night
BlackDragonSlayer- Vermilionvermin
MaestroUGC- Socialfox
Vermilionvermin- Liggy, TheZeldaPianist, Spitllama, Liggy
Bubbles-Dude
Liggy- Blueflower
Shadowkirby- Blueflower, Shadowkirby
TheZeldaPianist- Bird Blueflower
Spitllama-Maestro
Jub
Mashi
Dude-Dude
K-Night-Mashi

Total

Socialfox- 1
Blueflower- 3
BlackDragonSlayer- 1
MaestroUGC- 1
Vermilionvermin- 1
Liggy- 1
Shadowkirby- 1
Mashi- 1
Dude- 2
K-Night- 1

Phantoms

Mashi
Jub

[Bird]

Liggy is probably the way to go, ladies and gentlemen. He's not extraordinarily suspicious, but the only reason I was voting for blueflower999 over him was because I was suspicious of verm, and verm was suspicious of Liggy. The enemy of my enemy is my friend and what not. Liggy does indeed seem to harbor a strange certainty in blueflower's humanity, which is alarming. Just read Nighthawk's post though, if you want the details.

Anyway, convincing me didn't happen very easily, and made a few interesting statements along the way. I have all the logs saved, but these are probably the highlights:

• (2:28:49 AM) bird: how certain are you that Liggy is a wolf
  (2:29:07 AM) Vermilionvermin: 80%
• vermilionvermin agreed to help lynch blueflower999 if it meant Liggy would be seered the following night phase.
• vermilionvermin provided a plausible explanation for his thought process and how he came to the realization that the wolves don't know which of them is the Master Wolf.

If you want to see any other parts of the log, send me a PM. Right now we're sitting on an ugly 3-way knife-in-the-box, so if anyone could break this tie (hopefully in the direction of Liggy) that would be stupendous.

[Liggy]

What.

Why Liggy's defense of Blueflower is Wolfy

1.  He's more dedicated to defending blueflower than finding out whether he's a wolf or not.  (19:13 and 19:39 on the log really drive this point home). - MOST IMPORTANT POINT OF THE WHOLE THING, ANYTHING ELSE I HAVE IS SECONDARY TO THIS.

I am not doing this.  Just that simple.  What I am doing is defending people who have much less of a reason to be suspicious.  I'm going to be honest in that I didn't even see any of the reasons why blue was suspicious besides defending Social Fox, which I felt wasn't really a Goode one.

2.  He's oddly certain that lynching blueflower will cause him to be lynched (19:14), which implies that he knows that blueflower will flip red.
 
This would be super incriminating if I said that!  But, I didn't.  The actually line I said was something like "if blue is lynched I will ."  That is, being used as a verb, so it should be read as "if blue is lynched I will sadface."  I didn't want to see blue lynched, I thought there were much better options.

3.  I'm not sure how to reconcile this with point 2, but he also thought the phase ended earlier than it actually does.  This would make sense if blueflower's green because defending a human makes a person look human usually. 

I didn't say this either!  I have no idea when you thought I said this, or why you keep thinking I said stuff I didn't, but eh.  Even if I did say this, it isn't suspicious!  Regardless of my role, I'd want to defend someone that is being lynched near the end if the tread if they can't defend themselves and I don't think they should be lynched.

4.  Basically the first point of my last post.  After I tell him that blueflower is suspicious (19:03), he is still strongly against lynching him (19:12).  Later on (19:30), he says that my accusation makes sense and that he's willing to lynch blueflower as a result.  But even when he was staunchly against the blueflower lynch, he still had heard the reasoning against blueflower.

This is the point that makes the most sense, but like I said earlier, I didn't actually realize "acting like he did when he was wolf" was a point against blueflower.  You may have said it by then, but honestly I think I missed it.  Sorry.  :/

5.  He doesn't evaluate shadowkirby and blueflower by the same standard.  I say that blueflower is partially suspicious for not defending Liggy.  Liggy responds that this is not suspicious because it's perfectly reasonable for a human blueflower to want to avoid being lynched (19:21).  But he's willing to lynch shadowkirby (19:12).  This could be because shadowkirby bandwagons the blueflower lynch, but the much stronger reason why shadowkirby is suspicious is the fact that he takes off his vote in order to seem less suspicious.  Basically, he's willing to discount blueflower's previous wolf tendencies but not shadowkirby's previous human bandwagoning tendencies.  He's willing to say that blueflower isn't suspicious for wanting to avoid being lynched, but doesn't give shadowkirby that same benefit of the doubt.

I'm suspicious of shadow and TPZ not for bandwagoning, but for bandwagoning at the same time.  If you notice, before I realized that blue and shadow were acting differently than they do as human, I had TPZ and shadow rated the same.

I'm going to vote for shadow.  I really want to say that this whole thing was a reaction test, because you missed the obvious fact that my vote was on blue the entire time..  I mean, the explanation for that is incredibly simple, in that I didn't want to change my vote until after the discussion, and after that I didn't care and really just wanted to sleep.

[vermilionvermin]

That's a 4-way Kitb between Liggy, Shadow, Dude, and Blueflower.  I should be able to get back on later today to quickly change my vote if necessary.  I'm not swayed by Liggy's defense right now.  I can confirm that the actual log did say "If blueflower is lynched I will ," but by my reaction in the log you can tell I thought he was saying that if blueflower was lynched he'd be lynched.  As for point 3 about the phase ending, I'm pretty sure we all thought that the phase ended earlier at the time because tbwcw had said it ended earlier.

[Bird]

You don't think it's suspicious that you were defending the person you were voting for? And not just that, but defending them towards what we believed to be the end of the phase? It looked like you were setting yourself up for an "I told you so" rather than trying to lynch a wolf. You've changed your vote now, but I'm still not really impressed, since it could just be a response to the suspicion we have of you.

Also, shadowkirby, despite being awful, hadn't done anything out of the ordinary!!!!

Finally, there's your post on day one, which just comes across as something a wolf would say. The suggestion that even you would be a good seeing target, i mean.

[Bird]

I'll also be in the chatroom later this afternoon before the lynch.