Pokemon Showdown!

[BlackDragonSlayer]

is celebi an offensive or defensive pokemon

That depends. Mythical "100 across the board" Pokemon tend to be used for a multitude of purposes. Mew is all over the place, being either offensive (Nasty Plot), defensive (most sets with Roost), or more accurately, "support" Pokemon (Stealth Rock). Celebi is generally more offensive (Nasty Plot), though it can incorporate Leech Seed into its sets... and apparently has Stealth Rock too? Jirachi is either support or flinchhax offense, whereas Victini is pretty much solely offensive.

[mikey]

so pokemon can have multiple roles on a team and only get banned when one of those roles is too oppressive for a certain tier

meaning they're considered offensive pokemon when they're banned

[Echo]

No, Aegislash doesn't count because it's mostly an offensive threat

Aegislash

offensive threat

???

252+ SpA Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Raichu: 192-226 (73.5 - 86.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Charizard Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Raichu: 190-225 (72.7 - 86.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

guess regular Charizard should be banned

[BlackDragonSlayer]

252+ SpA Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Raichu: 192-226 (73.5 - 86.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Charizard Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Raichu: 190-225 (72.7 - 86.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

guess regular Charizard should be banned

Statwise, Aegislash doesn't seem all that promising defensively or offensively, but one must look closer to discover the lethal combination of its ability Stance Change and signature move King's Shield. With these two traits put together, Aegislash became a massive pain for teams to handle, as it could utilize Shield Forme's great 60 / 150 / 150 defensive stats to tank a hit and proceed to change to Blade Form when attacking to unleash powerful attacks with its 150 / 150 mixed offenses; basically, no stat, bar Speed, went to waste when making an offensive Aegislash. But while it's true that Blade Forme's defenses are abysmal, actually hitting Aegislash in Blade Forme can be very tricky without trading blows with it, as King's Shield would instantly revert Aegislash back to Shield Forme thanks to its priority and Aegislash's Speed is low enough to "outslow" every sweeper and most wallbreakers and always take hits in Shield Forme before launching its own attacks. Speaking of King's Shield, that move was one of the biggest complaints people had about Aegislash, as its effect of lowering the opponent's Attack by 2 two stages when they make contact with it made many of the physical attackers in the tier obsolete, made them use moves that were only useful for beating Aegislash, or would cause mind games that could turn a whole battle around. While Aegislash doesn't have a particularly expansive movepool, it does boast perfect neutral coverage in Shadow Ball and Sacred Sword, which also provides great mixed coverage to hit walls of all kinds. Aegislash was also blessed with a Ghost / Steel typing, granting it nine resistances, including a Stealth Rock resistance, and three immunities, including a Toxic immunity, making Aegislash that much harder to crack open.

Aegislash's simultaneous offensive and defensive capabilities are unmatched in OU. With its pseudo-base 720 BST, it contributes to teams in incredible ways even with minimal investment and planning. Aegislash's offensive power and incredible Ghost-type STAB coupled with its coverage options make it next to impossible to reliably answer.

u wot m8

like seriously
your post was really awful
that's not how it works

[Echo]

your post was really awful

that's mean

but all i'm seeing is that you dunno how to make an argument by yourself and hav to c/p stuff from smogon

try reading what you quote too. the whole first paragraph barely covers anything "offensive." the whole first part just goes on and on about Stance Change and King's Shield for soaking up attacks, and the last part is all about praising its resistances and immunities. heck, your second quote doesn't even prove that it's "mainly/primarily" offensive, since it leads off by saying that Aegislash is simultaneously offensive and defensive


For real though, calling Aegislash primarily an offensive threat is misleading. Yeah, it has 150 base special attack, but that's totally offset by having to use 80 base power moves. Like I proved above, in terms of raw power it's comparable to a normal Charizard. It's especially misleading to see posts that point out those 150 base offenses without mentioning the weak moves that they're used with. It's like trying to portray Shuckle as an amazing wall because it has base 230 defenses, without mentioning the base 20 HP.

I mean, Aegislash has usable offense, I'll give it that, but you trying to argue with FA and MSF that it's "mainly/primarily" offensive is just wrong. I mean, its best set was/is the Sub/Toxic set, so I dunno how you're even gonna say that it was mainly used for its offensive prowess. It was banned because it was just generally good all around and was placed on a bunch of teams, but the reason for that was because of its stupid immunities/resistances to keep common stuff like Pheromosa and Tapu Lele in line, with having a decent neutral-coverage attacking move being icing on the cake.

[BlackDragonSlayer]

that's mean

it was a haiku

but all i'm seeing is that you dunno how to make an argument by yourself and hav to c/p stuff from smogon

Because it answers your question and getting the info straight from the source is reliable and easy. And because I thought you'd be more likely to accept it rather than me just saying the same thing, but I guess not.

try reading what you quote too. the whole first paragraph barely covers anything "offensive." the whole first part just goes on and on about Stance Change and King's Shield for soaking up attacks, and the last part is all about praising its resistances and immunities. heck, your second quote doesn't even prove that it's "mainly/primarily" offensive, since it leads off by saying that Aegislash is simultaneously offensive and defensive

Again, you people are missing the point by overthinking it completely. I don't think we're on the same page here.

[mikey]

echo is an aegislash main

[FireArrow]

No, Aegislash doesn't count because it's mostly an offensive threat, not a defensive threat, though one of its forms does have high defensive capacity. Deoxys-D doesn't count because Deoxys is Ubers, and most of its forms are usually quickbanned from OU anyway.

One of Aegislashes best sets was subtoxic. dont really feel like talking about deoxysD so you can have that one

Yeah, like Noc said. Toxapex, Celesteela, and Mega Sableye are probably the most likely candidates I'd pick, with Ferrothorn and Chansey/Blissey trailing slightly behind. And maybe Magearna as well. This is mostly referring to OU; even though I'd like to see Toxapex eternally banished, I doubt they'd ban it from Ubers as well.

I'm ok with a Magearna ban but that's because of it's offensive capabilities and god tier broken ass typing.

Mega Sableye is the only one of those I could somewhat agree with becuase it circumvents stalls weaknesses and I hate that thing. I personally don't think it's a good idea to ban it though because stall would become borderline unviable without it and I don't think invalidating a playstyle is a very good way to go about things.

Toxapex is fine I think you just have personal issue with fat pokemon.

[BlackDragonSlayer]

One of Aegislashes best sets was subtoxic. dont really feel like talking about deoxysD so you can have that one

IIRC, the vast majority of Aegislash used throughout X/Y and Sun/Moon OU were Life Orb or offensive Leftovers sets. I can't recall seeing many (or any) SubToxic Aegislash, but like it was mentioned before, that set was mostly meant to be used against the ever-increasing number of Pokemon used against Aegislash (e.g. Mandibuzz and a couple others), and not Aegislash's "primary" set. I wish I could find my replays from before the Aegislash ban, but I can't seem to locate them.

Toxapex is fine I think you just have personal issue with fat pokemon.

I have nothing against defensive Pokemon by themselves; rather, I have a burning hatred for stall and the toxic mindsets that tend to accompany it. Stall is more exploiting the flaws of the system than a worthy playstyle. Since we can't change the game mechanics, curbing defensive Pokemon in OU is the best route we have to go.

Also, nah, Toxapex ain't "fine" by any measure.

[FireArrow]

IIRC, the vast majority of Aegislash used throughout X/Y and Sun/Moon OU were Life Orb or offensive Leftovers sets. I can't recall seeing many (or any) SubToxic Aegislash, but like it was mentioned before, that set was mostly meant to be used against the ever-increasing number of Pokemon used against Aegislash (e.g. Mandibuzz and a couple others), and not Aegislash's "primary" set. I wish I could find my replays from before the Aegislash ban, but I can't seem to locate them.

Iirc Aegislashes main use in gen 7 was to be a blanket check to the meta while being really hard to switch into becuase ghost typing along with the slew of sets it could run (subtoxic being one of them.)

I have nothing against defensive Pokemon by themselves; rather, I have a burning hatred for stall and the toxic mindsets that tend to accompany it. Stall is more exploiting the flaws of the system than a worthy playstyle. Since we can't change the game mechanics, curbing defensive Pokemon in OU is the best route we have to go.

Also, nah, Toxapex ain't "fine" by any measure.

My personal favorite playstyle is semistall. As long as your goal is to win by KOing all 6 pokemon then it's fine. Things such as PP stalling though are toxic (And luckily smogon agrees with me on that one.)

Toxapex can be lured (z-moves are the main reason I don't want to get into gen 7 >:c), broken by wallbreakers, and shit on by stallbreakers. It also sucks up a ton of momentum and provides no offensive presense.

[BlackDragonSlayer]

My personal favorite playstyle is semistall. As long as your goal is to win by KOing all 6 pokemon then it's fine. Things such as PP stalling though are toxic (And luckily smogon agrees with me on that one.)

No. You misunderstand. Whereas with most other playstyles, it's pretty clear when you're fighting a hopeless battle, stall encourages a mindset of fighting down to the last inch. Stall players will keep playing even when they're slipping, because down to the last turn, there's still a chance they could win, and thus, they insist on going on. And the thing is, even when you're on the winning path, there's still usually a long way to go before the battle's over (by nature of the Pokemon and moves they use which are, obviously, designed to stall), again, unlike other playstyles. And what's even worse if they get salty at you when you win.

Toxapex can be lured (z-moves are the main reason I don't want to get into gen 7 >:c), broken by wallbreakers, and shit on by stallbreakers. It also sucks up a ton of momentum and provides no offensive presense.

That's much, much easier said than done (there are barely any good wallbreakers in OU that have enough power AND coverage). Also, if you don't OHKO or sometimes, situationally, 2HKO the opposing stall Mon, the Z-move is pretty much useless against stall when they can just heal off all the damage next turn.

[FireArrow]

No. You misunderstand. Whereas with most other playstyles, it's pretty clear when you're fighting a hopeless battle, stall encourages a mindset of fighting down to the last inch. Stall players will keep playing even when they're slipping, because down to the last turn, there's still a chance they could win, and thus, they insist on going on. And the thing is, even when you're on the winning path, there's still usually a long way to go before the battle's over (by nature of the Pokemon and moves they use which are, obviously, designed to stall), again, unlike other playstyles. And what's even worse if they get salty at you when you win.p

I can see that. Maybe not as a reason to ban more defensive pokemon, but it's certaintly a good reason to not like stall.

That's much, much easier said than done (there are barely any good wallbreakers in OU that have enough power AND coverage). Also, if you don't OHKO or sometimes, situationally, 2HKO the opposing stall Mon, the Z-move is pretty much useless against stall when they can just heal off all the damage next turn.

Wall breakers are alive and kicking - Medicham, Bulu, and Lele are pretty scary. Stall breakers are kind of bad right now because they get countered by mega sableye (although without sab they'd 6-0 stall.)

[mikey]

wait, medicham is an OU pokemon?

[BlackDragonSlayer]

Wall breakers are alive and kicking - Medicham, Bulu, and Lele are pretty scary. Stall breakers are kind of bad right now because they get countered by mega sableye (although without sab they'd 6-0 stall.)

Mega Medicham is eh (might have to try it out, but I've barely seen it around anyway). Tapu Bulu needs Choice Band (which seriously restricts coverage), or Swords Dance (which either has a hard time setting up and/or completely loses to anything that can hit it super effectively... or for that matter, anything which it doesn't hit super effectively or especially resists grass), and likewise, Tapu Lele pretty much relies on Choice Scarf, which means you either have to severely wear down the opponent's team first, or do a lot of switching (which isn't likely to go over well against stall). None of those are "pretty scary" at all considering what they have to go against... and Mega Sableye isn't the only issue: it's having such a large quantity of stall-conducive Pokemon to work with, and not enough to go against it.

[FireArrow]

On smogon Tapu Bulu is A+, Lele A, and Mega Medi A- for what it's worth. Their stall matchup is really good, their weakness being a bad matchup against offense. I also forgot about Hoopu-U but he's a bit of an extreme.