Politics

[PlayfulPiano]

quick visit, want to say, real US conservatives are people like maryland's governor. Ideas like budget balancing and small government aren't that bad policies to believe in.

BUT, and this is a big but, when there are people who support things that are outright inhumane (child separation at the border, blocking muslims from entering the country, defending white surpremacists), then that's not being a conservative, that's being an asshole.

[mikey]

Strong border security is definitely conservative politics

[PlayfulPiano]

Strong border security is definitely conservative politics

Strong border security is one thing, discriminatory border security and splitting up families is another.

[Pianist Da Sootopolis]

Or if we want strong border security and/or are worried about drug cartels, violence, etc. from Latin America, we could end the fucking drug war and get rid of the vast majority of the demand for the cartels in the US lol. The US is the main source of demand for these drugs, and the majority of immigrants crossing the southern border are fleeing drug cartel violence (BTW, the majority of illegal/undocumented immigrants come here on planes and overstay their visas).

[PlayfulPiano]

Or if we want strong border security and/or are worried about drug cartels, violence, etc. from Latin America, we could end the fucking drug war and get rid of the vast majority of the demand for the cartels in the US lol. The US is the main source of demand for these drugs, and the majority of immigrants crossing the southern border are fleeing drug cartel violence (BTW, the majority of illegal/undocumented immigrants come here on planes and overstay their visas).

Exactly. Shutting down the border won't stop the demand, so that path is massively inefficient. It's just a scapegoat to villinafy immigrants that happen to have a different skin pigment.
If the issue is illegal immigration, then the target should be overstayed visas.
If the issue is drug trafficking, then the target should be the demand of drugs within the US.

Neither issue will be fixed by closing down borders / building a wall. The only people affected by that is the legitimate, legal asylum seekers from countries which are unsuitable for their safety who are caught in the crossfires.

[Sebastian]

Exactly. Shutting down the border won't stop the demand, so that path is massively inefficient. It's just a scapegoat to villinafy immigrants that happen to have a different skin pigment.

I'm not really sure where you are getting this idea. A lot of people like to call people racist when they make decisions they don't like. I honestly thought we've come beyond that sort of petty behavior.

If the issue is illegal immigration, then the target should be overstayed visas.
If the issue is drug trafficking, then the target should be the demand of drugs within the US.

Neither issue will be fixed by closing down borders / building a wall. The only people affected by that is the legitimate, legal asylum seekers from countries which are unsuitable for their safety who are caught in the crossfires.

Overstayed visas and drugs in the U.S may be problems, but so is border security. Protecting the southern border with a wall is only a logical measure to be taken if there are illegal immigrants coming into the country illegally. The building of a wall is not a scandalous order under those circumstances. Whether they're "legitimate, legal asylum seekers," or anyone else trying to get into the United States, entering the United States illegally is uncalled for.

Also, whatever happens in Mexico comes in second to what happens in the U.S because we (U.S leaders, law enforcement, etc.) have a duty to take care of our citizens first before anyone else. It's not because we don't like Mexicans, but because we have an obligation to the citizens of the U.S first (to protect them, etc.).

[mikey]

Wanting a wall is fine and dandy but doesn't solve any problems

I dunno where the idea that people crossing is the problem came from, the border is insanely dangerous and controlled by cartels and vigilantism

[PlayfulPiano]

I'm not really sure where you are getting this idea. A lot of people like to call people racist when they make decisions they don't like. I honestly thought we've come beyond that sort of petty behavior.
Overstayed visas and drugs in the U.S may be problems, but so is border security. Protecting the southern border with a wall is only a logical measure to be taken if there are illegal immigrants coming into the country illegally. The building of a wall is not a scandalous order under those circumstances. Whether they're "legitimate, legal asylum seekers," or anyone else trying to get into the United States, entering the United States illegally is uncalled for.

Also, whatever happens in Mexico comes in second to what happens in the U.S because we (U.S leaders, law enforcement, etc.) have a duty to take care of our citizens first before anyone else. It's not because we don't like Mexicans, but because we have an obligation to the citizens of the U.S first (to protect them, etc.).

Entering the country through land borders seeking asylum is legal based on US and UN law/code, without previous preparations.
https://www.rescue.org/article/it-legal-cross-us-border-seek-asylum is a good source (nonbiased as per MBFC https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/international-rescue-committee-irc/)


And it isn't like there's miles of open border in which drug cartels enter the country. It's the opposite, where most illegal activities enter the country through legal points of entry.
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2019/01/16/fact-check-mike-pence-donald-trump-drugs-crossing-southern-border-wall/2591279002/

The wall is a populist idea that is inefficient and medieval. It's there only as a symbol against what one of the US's major core principles: being a place open to everyone no matter their backgrounds, beliefs, appearance, and so forth so they can have their own ability to freely live their life.

You can't call someone crossing the southern border an illegal immigrant just because they aren't a citizen. That's not how it works at all.

[Splatoon Inkling]

True, well said Seb. Also weird how it's said there is no crisis yet thousands of illegal immigrants are pouring in every day now. There are two ways to come into this country, legally or illegally. When people come in illegally something is definitely wrong. We are free, but we are free under the law. Therefore abiding by it. If someone cares about the country they are going into they are gonna try in their best effort to abide the laws, and come in legally.

[Sebastian]

I mean, I understand that we're a country open to everyone no matter their backgrounds, beliefs, appearance, etc. but under the law.

[Splatoon Inkling]

I mean, I understand that we're a country open to everyone no matter their backgrounds, beliefs, appearance, etc. but under the law.

My point exactly. Also, I believe we need to build a wall, why? Because walls work. I find it very hypocritical of these poloticians to be saying so yet there are many of them who themselves have walls around their properties. When Obama said we needed a wall the Democrats were all over it, they wanted it too. As soon as Trump said we need a wall it's terrible. Why? Because he's Trump. He can't do anything right. He's not a politician. He is an outsider. They never wanted him in, he has his own money because he is a very smart business man and actually knows how money, business, and economy work. They can't buy him out or bribe him like the other poloticians.

[AmpharosAndy]

BUild thE NSm WalLL !!@!

[PlayfulPiano]

My point exactly. Also, I believe we need to build a wall, why? Because walls work. I find it very hypocritical of these poloticians to be saying so yet there are many of them who themselves have walls around their properties. When Obama said we needed a wall the Democrats were all over it, they wanted it too. As soon as Trump said we need a wall it's terrible. Why? Because he's Trump. He can't do anything right. He's not a politician. He is an outsider. They never wanted him in, he has his own money because he is a very smart business man and actually knows how money, business, and economy work. They can't buy him out or bribe him like the other poloticians.

Obama never pushed for a border wall. Some small fencing areas while he was a senator, sure, but not a full on wall that goes across the entire southern border. https://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2017/apr/23/mick-mulvaney/fact-check-did-top-democrats-vote-border-wall-2006/

I mean, I understand that we're a country open to everyone no matter their backgrounds, beliefs, appearance, etc. but under the law.

Yes, that is what all of those immigrants coming from the southern border are. They're not illegal, they're legal immigrants. Any immigrant coming from the southern border who requests asylum, are by definition of both US and international law, legal.
https://www.uscis.gov/humanitarian/refugees-asylum/asylum

What happens is that ICE (specifically the ERO) deports asylum seekers based on the reasoning of their homeland not posing "a credible threat". Or alternatively, it's due to the absolute insane backlog of immigration court orders which lead long waiting people into a difficult and vulnerable position in which they could get deported. Because the current executive branch continues to label legal asylum seekers as "illegal immigrants", which is a lie.

The only real illegal immigrants in this country are those who overstay their visa, or break the law (as in theft, fraud, and other non-specific misdemeanors or felonies) while under legal asylum protections. Undocumented immigrants, those coming from the southern border, are legal asylum seekers.

Because right now due to the rhertoric in the US to demonize and animalize immigrants cause stories like this to occur daily:
https://www.reddit.com/r/news/comments/bc7t37/elevenyearold_ordered_deported_without_her_family/ekoh4su/ (link is to a non-paywall c/p of the article in question, MBFC: https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/houston-chronicle/)

Some snippets:

The family entered through the southern border in early October, telling U.S. government officials that they feared returning to their native El Salvador. They were released to pursue their asylum case in the backlogged civil immigration courts, and since then have complied with court orders and appearance dates.

Dora Alvarado felt something was off when she arrived at immigration court in Houston March 12 with her two daughters. A court translator told her that she and her 15-year-old, Adamaris Alvarado, were listed on the docket that day. Her 11-year-old, Laura Maradiaga, was not.

Days later, Alvarado received a letter in English — a language she cannot speak or read — bearing Laura's name. It wasn't until the trio returned to court this week that a different translator told her the letter was the 11-year-old's removal order.

even as the Trump administration has tried to curtail access to asylum to deter more from coming. The government has overturned a provision allowing those fleeing gang and domestic violence to qualify for the protection and made it more difficult for immigration judges to close cases on their own, exacerbating a backlog of more than 800,000 cases that was further jeopardized by the month-long government shutdown earlier this year.

The administration has also tried to ban those crossing illegally from seeking asylum and force others to wait in Mexico while their asylum cases proceed through the courts, though federal judges have blocked both the latter measures.

And important key note: If you enter the US without permission, that is an "illegal crossing". But if you do so seeking asylum, then it is considered legal based on, again,
US: https://www.rescue.org/article/it-legal-cross-us-border-seek-asylum

Yes, seeking asylum is legal. Asylum seekers must be in the U.S. or at a port of entry (an airport or an official land crossing) to apply for, or request the opportunity to apply for, asylum. "There's no way to ask for a visa or any type of authorization in advance for the purpose of seeking asylum," says the International Rescue Committee's director of immigration, Olga Byrne. "You just have to show up." 

"While the administration is saying people should come here legally and follow a legal process, it's making it impossible to do so," says Byrne. "So many individuals and families have been trying to follow a legal process, but instead they've been stranded in Tijuana or other northern Mexico towns because they have been denied access to any U.S. official."

and International: https://www.unhcr.org/asylum-seekers.html
Law.

And I haven't even mentioned the immorality and danger that comes from separating children from their families in these situations, or deporting individual children who don't necessarily have a caretaker in their original country. Or how the federal government has had a piss poor ability to track these children. Or how the camps in which these children stay at are akin to freaking camps from wwii (our own japanese camps).
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/09/18/us/politics/us-migrant-children-whereabouts-.html / https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/1475-immigrant-children-missing/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trump_administration_family_separation_policy
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/posteverything/wp/2018/06/20/yes-you-can-call-the-border-detention-centers-concentration-camps-but-apply-the-history-with-care/?utm_term=.218578420af6

[Splatoon Inkling]

A quote from Trump. President Obama separated the children, by the way, just so you understand. President Obama separated the children. Those cages that were shown -- I think they were very inappropriate. They were built by President Obama's administration, not by Trump. President Obama had child separation. Take a look. The press knows it, you know it, we all know it. I'm the one who changed that. I'll tell you something: once you don't have family separation, that's why you see many more people coming. They are coming like it's a picnic, like 'let's go to Disney Land.' President Obama separated children, I was the one who changed it.

[Sebastian]

Even though I agree with the quote you shared, I don't think some people take Trump very seriously.

Anyway, Playful, I do see where you're coming from. Unfortunately, I don't really know enough on the specific topic to comment further. I do know, however, that there are a lot of lies and dishonesty out there, whether that be social media, news broadcasts, articles, etc. This is why I don't really ever get into politics, but rather focus on other truth.