Religion

[Jub3r7]

examples of animal morality or subjectivity, having independent feelings and emotions.

Spoiler

Elephants have some of the most elaborate group rituals of any animals. When a beloved member of an elephant troop dies, those left behind will mourn the lost individual by "burying" the body with leaves and grass, and keeping vigil over the body for a week. And just as humans visit the gravesites of their lost loved ones, elephants visit the bones of dead elephants for years to come.

Dolphins routinely show love for species not their own. Several dolphins have practiced random acts of kindness by rescuing swimmers from hammerhead sharks. A few generous dolphins have even guided stranded whales back to sea. But the cetaceans save most of their goodwill for others in their pod — just like humans, they have a you-scratch-my-nose, I'll-scratch-yours ethic that demands routine kindness and generosity.
[jub note: dolphins also rape a lot but humans do too]

[close]

edit: but wait, there's more
"And there are many examples of animals demonstrating ostensibly compassionate or empathetic behaviors toward other animals, including humans. In one experiment, hungry rhesus monkeys refused to electrically shock their fellow monkeys, even when it meant getting food for themselves. In another study, a female gorilla named Binti Jua rescued an unconscious 3-year-old (human) boy who had fallen into her enclosure at the Brookline Zoo in Illinois, protecting the child from other gorillas and even calling for human help."

[SlowPokemon]

I feel like a lot of people here operate under the "humans are inherently good and have to be corrupted to be bad" notion. Tbh I think it's the opposite. IMO we don't have to suppress our conscience, we have to make an effort to be aware of it and not let our instincts take over. We act like this big pretentious important creature with a sense of justice and a moral compass to so what's right but we're not above anything else tbh.

[Dudeman]

Are you saying I should feel bad about eating a cheeseburger? Because I don't lol.

lol I missed what you were joking at. Yes, I always question if my cheeseburger's imminent demise violates its rights. OCCUPY MCDONALD'S!

examples of animal morality or subjectivity, having independent feelings and emotions.

Okay, maybe using feelings was the wrong way to go about it. Generally, animals do those acts for (ultimately) their own good.  The dolphins will probably receive some reward (emotional or physical) for rescuing the human or the whale. As you pointed out, the crustaceans limit their good deeds to others in their pod. And dolpin rape shows that they are just as capable of good as bad. My point was that they can't start to wonder if those actions are inherently good or inherently bad. That requires metacognition, which animals are incapable of.

I feel like a lot of people here operate under the "humans are inherently good and have to be corrupted to be bad" notion. Tbh I think it's the opposite. IMO we don't have to suppress our conscience, we have to make an effort to be aware of it and not let our instincts take over. We act like this big pretentious important creature with a sense of justice and a moral compass to so what's right but we're not above anything else tbh.

This I actually agree with; i.e., humans are inherently bad. I was referring to how the conscience is still there, even if a human's first instinct is to do the wrong thing.

aaaaaaand now I have to go to work and won't be back for 9 hours. I hope everyone stays relatively calm and understanding.

[Dude]

lol I missed what you were joking at. Yes, I always question if my cheeseburger's imminent demise violates its rights. OCCUPY MCDONALD'S!

._. What are cheeseburgers made of?

[Sebastian]

Wood chips

[Dude]

Sir, we are having a serious discussion about cheeseburgers. I think we'd all appreciate if you either joined or left. Your choice.

[Sebastian]

I don't see the point of debating so I won't join

[Dude]

I never said it was a debate about cheeseburgers though, just a discussion.

[mikey]

I wouldn't say a humans first instinct is to do the wrong thing, but the most satisfying thing
Aka the id

[Sebastian]

I wouldn't say a humans first instinct is to do the wrong thing, but the most satisfying thing
Aka the id

This true. Or most pleasurable thing

[Dude]

This true. Or most pleasurable thing

Satisfaction and pleasure are the same thing.

[Brawler4Ever]

So the fact that an intelligent being had to "guide" the creation of the universe is proof that one doesn't exist? Unless I'm reading it wrong, it seems like you're contradicting yourself.

I believe that an intelligent being guided the universe. But that is my belief. I have no way to prove that. So, in terms of a debate, it's my word against the other side's.

Me: An intelligent being created the universe.
Them: No it didn't.
Me: Whatever.

[Ruto]

As I'm sure you know, the inability to take criticism and skepticism would render the purpose of science null and void.

This entire debate was started by me saying the bible isn't an accurate historical document. That was really the entire point I was trying to get across. You can continue to believe in your Bible all you want and I won't judge you, but please accept that it has no credibility and trying to use it to defy scientific discoveries and/or insult people who don't agree with you is just ludicrous.

I think you should read what I've actually posted. Don't think science has a purpose other than to describe natural phenomena (laws of physics describe motion of planetary objects which acts anyway without any real purpose), maybe you think "pursuing science/knowledge."

[other topic]

Hmm I should have said "creationionist and intelligent design" since they're not necessarily the same. It would be nice if people could regenerate limbs like some lizards.

Anyway, to be a bit of a devil's advocate here, if anyone uses animal examples, make sure that you're not assigning human traits to animals for an argument or observation. Animal researchers have to be careful about that. What I'd like to bring up are children raised without any sort of social interaction. How do they do?

[Sebastian]

Satisfaction and pleasure are the same thing.

Not necessarily but whatever

[Dude]

noun: pleasure
1.
a feeling of happy satisfaction and enjoyment.
"she smiled with pleasure at being praised"
synonyms:   happiness, delight, joy, gladness, glee, satisfaction, gratification, contentment, enjoyment, amusement
"she smiled with pleasure"

:O