Yugi's Arrangements. (10/11/15 Undertale)

[Yugi]

All problems barring one of Jompa's should be fixed.

[Yugi]

Hi.

I have been attempting to arrange "Medusa's Final Battle" from Kid Icarus Uprising, and at the end of Bar 1, I have already encountered a problem.

This is the Notation for the Introduction, which is shown in 0:00-0:04 into the song, however, with the two notes in the right hand, in the end of the bar, I couldn't seem to get the timing right for that part for the song, and I must ask that someone tell me what the notation for those two notes is.

Thanks in advance.

[Jompa]

What do you mean? That is correct

[FierceDeity]

Rhythmically correct, but should be double note lengths and in 6/8 (I see what you mean now, Jompa )

[Jompa]

nonono, don't do anything with the note lengths, just use 6/8 instead - half the time sig, not the note values!

[FierceDeity]

Nevermind, I thought we were on the same page, but I guess not.
Those dotted quarters should be dotted half notes, otherwise it would be 71 bpm, like I thought you agreed it shouldn't be O.o

[Jompa]

Why can't they just be dotted quarters at 142 bpm (regardless of wether it's 12/8 or 6/8)? If they are changed to dotted halfs we're suddenly left with 3/4 or 6/4.

[FierceDeity]

becauuuse that's the wrong rhythm...this is the first bar, no? if dotted quarter note = 142 and you write those opening chords as dotted quarter notes, that means they're going to be played twice as fast as they should. As well as everything following that, if it's written in sixteenth notes as you say.
i.e. if you set a metronome to 142 bpm, one of those chords is going to sound every click. and that's way too fast.
Also, dotted half in 6/8 is perfectly normal. It's just like writing a whole note in 4/4; doesn't imply any subdivisions or anything.

[Jompa]

Ahh I see, sorry I don't exactly have all the metronome markings in my head ;P but ofc I realize that 142 is way too fast!
Though, you don't really know if he's using 142 or 71 bpm, so if he's using 71 there's no problem.

Definitely don't go with the dotted halfs though - For starters, those notes are not supposed to be on every beat. There will also be a whole load of mess with the underlying tuplets (which I won't explain, because it's late), but in short, 6/8 would be wrong, and 3/4 would be the right one to use (with 142 bpm), but I think we've all settled on that 6/8 is the best, no?

In conclusion: The notation is correct, it just needs to be in 71 bpm (if it isn't already), and in 6/8.

[FierceDeity]

I think we've all settled on that 6/8 is the best, no?

I'd kinda actually just conceded that because if it were at the same tempo it wasn't really that big of a deal. However, I do understand what you're talking about with the tuplets, I just...disagree, really. It would be represented in quarter notes, a syncopation that's completely fine/totally common in compound meter. In my experience, it's a lot more common than the base rhythm being in sixteenth notes, especially if that would mean such a slow tempo. Also, at situations like 10 seconds in, 6/8 at 71 bpm, that would mean dividing each beat into two sets of three sixteenth notes (giving it a duple feel), something a lot less common than using quarter notes in syncopation.
Also, I was never suggesting 3/4; that would be (EDIT: 213) bpm, and that's just ridiculous

(Sorry for being so persistent about this. It's not that I want to argue to prove anything, it's just that I'm studying music composition, and if I have some misconception as to the proper use of meters, then that's important for me to know.)

[Jompa]

I'd kinda actually just conceded that because if it were at the same tempo it wasn't really that big of a deal. However, I do understand what you're talking about with the tuplets, I just...disagree, really. It would be represented in quarter notes, a syncopation that's completely fine/totally common in compound meter. In my experience, it's a lot more common than the base rhythm being in sixteenth notes, especially if that would mean such a slow tempo. Also, at situations like 10 seconds in, 6/8 at 71 bpm, that would mean dividing each beat into two sets of three sixteenth notes (giving it a duple feel), something a lot less common than using quarter notes in syncopation.
Also, I was never suggesting 3/4; that would be (EDIT: 213) bpm, and that's just ridiculous

This entire thing right above here ^ up there, is a huge misunderstanding.
You mention that using quarters is an acceptable "syncopation", but you know what? That's irrelevant, because there aren't any syncopations in this song. The beats are not the dotted quarters when those underlying tuplets are quarters - that's not the case here.
The case here is that there are two beats per measure and there are three underlying tuplets per beat. You can not disagree to that.

"In my experience, it's a lot more common than the base rhythm being in sixteenth notes"

In my version, the base rythm are the dotted quarters, and the underlying tuplet are eights - the sixteenth notes does not play any role in the time-sigature in my version (if they should be playing a role at all, It'd had to be 12/16 or 6/16). The sixteenth notes exist in this song, when the beats are dotted quarters, yes, but the sixteenths aren't the base rhythm at all. You got that wrong.

Back to your version:

Have a good look at this!
Your version is wrong, because the structure of 6/8 is "two beats with three underlying eights each".
To quickly put the beats of the song into perspective - the beats equals to the duration of those first four notes (regardless of our versions).
In your version that means that the underlying tuplets are quarters, while mine are eights.
This of course means that using 6/8 in your version (which pushes a beat in the middle of those notes) is wrong, because
it not only specifies a beat where there aren't any, but also pushes a beat on an unaccented piece of the measure - it actually puts a beat BETWEEN the second and the third quarter tuplet, where there is no stress AT ALL.
It is wrong, no argument.

Your version would work in 3/4 (or much rather, 6/4 (because of the two-beat-feel)), but not in /8-sigs. But personally, I would not go for a /4 sig here, because the stress on the beats are definitely greater on the places where the beats would be in 6/8 (where only the first/fourth of six beats would be in 6/4).

(This could of course be fixed if the tempo was assigned to the dotted half, instead of the quarter, but since you seem to care about what's "more common", you shouldn't bother with that...)

My personal opinion on 6/8 (w/dotted quarter as beat) VS 6/4 (w/dotted half as beat):
6/4 in such a tempo in this case is inelegant. Not wrong at all, though ofc.

In conclusion - an universal rule on this song:
As long as the underlying tuplets are placed on accented pieces of the measure, it is correct - but that's not the case with your version.


@Yugi: What you've done so far should just be changed into 6/8 - don't do anything with note values or tempo or anything. Just the sig!
other than that, there is nothing wrong with it.

[FierceDeity]

Yes, there are three underlying tuplets per beat; I understand this, or I wouldn't have suggested compound meter in the first place :/

there aren't any syncopations in this song

That's where you're wrong. In either version, there is syncopation in approximately half of each bar (EDIT: which is not enough to fully imply another time signature!!!). Allow me to give an example of each, as you have done.

In my version, the syncopation falls on the latter half of the bar, creating the 3/4 feel that you pointed out. And I acknowledge this.

However, in your version, you neglect to acknowledge the underlying floor tom beat (which, while obviously not played in a piano arrangement, should still be considered when determining the time signature). In this version, the first half of each bar is syncopated, because the floor tom is accenting in a dotted eighth note pattern, which deviates from the eighth note tuplet feel (which I have indicated with the parenthesized accents). Not to mention, the sixth measure (the same idea of which is repeated later on) only accents dotted eighth notes, which is definitely syncopation, even if you're just considering the parts that would go into a piano arrangement.

All I'm trying to say is that this isn't as black and white as you seem to be treating it. Again, there is syncopation in both versions. I'm much more accustomed to seeing things written in my method, and you are apparently much more accustomed to seeing things written in yours. This is more preferentially based than should allow us to say:

It is wrong, no argument.

I hope you understand my side of this, but if not, fuck it, because I'm not even the one arranging this...

[Jompa]

o.o So yeah, it seams I think of this song as the 3/4 kind, while you think of it as the 4/4 swing kind. I do see what you mean by that underlying floor tom line, but even with it I can't get the 4/4 swing feel from it (which is pretty much all it comes down to).
If you get that feel (which you apparently do), then I think we are dealing with some "phenomenon" that makes us feel it differently - I'm not even joking, I can't get that feel.
For me, there aren't any syncopated rhythms, which is freaky to think about o.o
I have noticed that many people interpreted the time in these kinds of songs differently - I am specifically referring to that Pirates of the Caribbean theme - you probably know what I mean.
I can "adjust" myself to thinking the 4/4 way, but that's not natural to me for some reason. I would probably arrange a song like this in 3/4 - I definitely would, actually.

But OF COURSE, from a musical perspective, this means that you are totally right. Boom! Congrats!

[FierceDeity]

Hooray, understanding!
And to think I was about to concede defeat in order to avoid further argument... Your knowledge of things makes it very hard to disagree with you, ya know
Oh and yeah, I've had many an unpleasant experience playing Pirates in bands full of people that refuse to agree with one another :/

[Jompa]

Yep, it seems we pretty much agreed all along, but were only talking about different interpretations of the time.
It's really weird isn't it o.o
Hey Yugi, do as FierceDeity says!