Jompa's Compositions/Non-Video Game Related Arrangements/Performances

[Ricky]

Ok, you seem to have misunderstood me again. I never said anything about that this should be in relative major. I just stated which tones C mixolydian consists of and obviously that the proper key signature is one flat because the 7th is flatted as it's mixolydian. I also stated that in your piece this doesn't seem to be the case which is ofc ok to do but makes things more ambigious.

[Jompa]

Doesn't change that you wan't C major songs in mixolydian mode to be written in F major - you don't see anything wrong with that?
If you see a sheet with no sharps/flats and someone ask you to say what the key signature is, you would have to say "Oh, it's either in C major, D minor, E minor, F major, G major, A minor, or B minor". Or if there were three flats you'd have to say "Oh, it's either in Eb major, F minor, G minor, Ab major, Bb major, C minor, or D minor", because you wouldn't know what mode the song would be in before you could listen to it, and define the tonic. That defeats one of the main purposes of key signature -> specifying the tonic.

And in my piece it is mixolydian all the way - it never modulates. You're confusing it with progression.

[MoboMoga]

This piece is amazing! i really like it, and that's quite something considering the fact that I'm someone who doesn't like march music. Excellent job (as usual of course, haha)! Keep it up! By the way, did you get to use these instrumentsf from a computer program (e.g. Finale) or from an actual recording? It's extremely frustrating when (like my Cloud Valse) I'm restricted to certain instruments when I use Noteflight.

[Jompa]

Thank you Mobo Glad you liked it!
The instrument sound fonts are those from Finale. Why not try it?


I made this too

"Freygish Blues"
MP3
PDF

[FireArrow]

Oh, that's awesome Jompa!

[MoboMoga]

Great appliance of the scale to the piece! I'm still struggling to use Finale, I sort-of learned how to add text and stuff, but the adding and deleting notes are kind of frustrating for me. I'm going to practice using the application, now that I see you could select a variety of instruments from it. 

[Jompa]

Thanks a lot

I think Finale is something you'll get used to over time, anyone who uses it can agree on that.

[Ricky]

Doesn't change that you wan't C major songs in mixolydian mode to be written in F major - you don't see anything wrong with that?
If you see a sheet with no sharps/flats and someone ask you to say what the key signature is, you would have to say "Oh, it's either in C major, D minor, E minor, F major, G major, A minor, or B minor". Or if there were three flats you'd have to say "Oh, it's either in Eb major, F minor, G minor, Ab major, Bb major, C minor, or D minor", because you wouldn't know what mode the song would be in before you could listen to it, and define the tonic. That defeats one of the main purposes of key signature -> specifying the tonic.

And in my piece it is mixolydian all the way - it never modulates. You're confusing it with progression.

I think I understand the way you think but it doesn't make much sense. For instance if you have a key signature of no sharps or flats and you don't see many accidentals it is very likely that it's a western (church) mode (ionian, dorian, phrygian, lydian, mixolydian, aeolian or locrian), more specifically either C Ionian (Major), D Dorian, E Phrygian, F Lydian, G Mixolydian, A Aeolian (Natural Minor), B Locrian. The most common and most likely option is that it's either in C Major or a modified version A Natural Minor. Which of all possible options (even going beyond western (church) modes) depends on the tonic. And the tonic is made more or less clear sooner or later (unless it's pretty atonal music). If C seems to be the tonic, fine, it's probably in C Major, if D on the other hand seems to be the tonic, then fine it's probably D Dorian.

Now you're suggesting that if something is written in D Dorian (obviously no sharps or flats in the scale) you should use the D Major key signature and make all the F and C (when you want) natural instead of letting the key signature handle it. Or another example: it's like writing in A minor but because you want to make sure everyone sees A is the tonic you use the A major key signature which has three sharps and not only have a bunch of accidentals for raising and lowering the 6ths and 7ths but also include three sharps that have to be made natural with accidentals. Why, isn't it easier just letting the key signature handle it and make sure your music puts emphasis on the tonic (to a degree that suits for the purpose)? Why you don't simply want to use one flat in your key signature when C mixolydian has one flat in its' scale is a mystery to me. It's obvious that F Major isn't the scale if you just make sure C is the tonic. Just because modes historically have been less commonly used doesn't mean common sense music theory rules shouldn't apply.

"That defeats one of the main purposes of key signature -> specifying the tonic." Right, because we don't commonly use two different modes with the same notes already and don't have to identify which of the two modes (ionian or aeolian) it is. Also if you specify the tonic by using the major key signature for the same tonic, for instance C as tonic using the key signature of C Major you still have to identify the mode depending on all the accidentals that happen to appear. So it could be C Major, C Dorian, C Phrygian, C Lydian, C Mixolydian, C Aeolian or C Locrian (not to mention countless other scales and modes).

Anyways, fine, I guess it's more decorative chromaticism in your piece then rather than chromaticism for the purpose of modulation and parts written in other keys.

[Jompa]

I think I understand the way you think but it doesn't make much sense. For instance if you have a key signature of no sharps or flats and you don't see many accidentals it is very likely that it's a western (church) mode (ionian, dorian, phrygian, lydian, mixolydian, aeolian or locrian), more specifically either C Ionian (Major), D Dorian, E Phrygian, F Lydian, G Mixolydian, A Aeolian (Natural Minor), B Locrian. The most common and most likely option is that it's either in C Major or a modified version A Natural Minor. Which of all possible options (even going beyond western (church) modes) depends on the tonic. And the tonic is made more or less clear sooner or later (unless it's pretty atonal music). If C seems to be the tonic, fine, it's probably in C Major, if D on the other hand seems to be the tonic, then fine it's probably D Dorian.

My point is that you are not allowed to "adjust" the key signature after the mode.
Of course, this whole discussion bases on that you don't agree, so I don't know what to say to convince you, but there's no way you are going to convince me either when you are just summarizing what I've already said, only adding your support to it.

Now you're suggesting that if something is written in D Dorian (obviously no sharps or flats in the scale) you should use the D Major key signature and make all the F and C (when you want) natural instead of letting the key signature handle it. Or another example: it's like writing in A minor but because you want to make sure everyone sees A is the tonic you use the A major key signature which has three sharps and not only have a bunch of accidentals for raising and lowering the 6ths and 7ths but also include three sharps that have to be made natural with accidentals.

You're putting words in my mouth.
D dorian is minor, right? So you shouldn't use D major, that's crazy.
Your entire argument for this doesn't work, as A minor also is minor, and therefore it shouldn't be notated A minor.

Why, isn't it easier just letting the key signature handle it and make sure your music puts emphasis on the tonic (to a degree that suits for the purpose)? Why you don't simply want to use one flat in your key signature when C mixolydian has one flat in its' scale is a mystery to me. It's obvious that F Major isn't the scale if you just make sure C is the tonic. Just because modes historically have been less commonly used doesn't mean common sense music theory rules shouldn't apply.

Why are you telling me, I didn't make the rules. Neither did you btw, so I don't get where you even have this from in the first place?
Also I disagree with your statement about common sense music theory no applying - again, I didn't make the rules, so don't rant me about this, but major (ionian, lydian, mixolydian) should be notated major, and minor (dorian, phrygian, aeolian, locrian) should be notated minor - modes doesn't affect that - they shouldn't and they don't, that's music theory for ya.

"That defeats one of the main purposes of key signature -> specifying the tonic." Right, because we don't commonly use two different modes with the same notes already and don't have to identify which of the two modes (ionian or aeolian) it is. Also if you specify the tonic by using the major key signature for the same tonic, for instance C as tonic using the key signature of C Major you still have to identify the mode depending on all the accidentals that happen to appear. So it could be C Major, C Dorian, C Phrygian, C Lydian, C Mixolydian, C Aeolian or C Locrian (not to mention countless other scales and modes).

And this is exactly the same as your second paragraph. I don't believe that, I'm not that stupid - actually, I am following music theory.

(not to mention countless other scales and modes)

Interesting.
So let's take my newest composition "Freygish Blues". It is in G Phrygian Dominant (or rather builds on that scale). If G major doesn't apply, as you say - what key signature would, hm?

Anyways, fine, I guess it's more decorative chromaticism in your piece then rather than chromaticism for the purpose of modulation and parts written in other keys.

Or simply going out of key every now and then, that's allowed too. It is just progression - it wouldn't really be much of a piece without it.

[Ricky]

No, dorian is not minor. It's a "minor" mode but it's a whole different mode. Dorian should be notated as dorian, not as aeolian. Your concept of modes makes no sense. Let me put it this way, a scale (probably not the proper word, maybe scale group would be more proper) is a formula of certain intervals, but within a scale you can switch the tonic so the order of the intervals in the formula changes which creates a mode. The most basic example is the western diatonic scale has seven steps but their order can be changed creating different modes (ionian, dorian, phrygian, lydian, mixolydian, aoelian & locrian). Ofc a similiar thing can be made with for example the melodic minor, you can change the starting note so that the scale starts on another step and this creates another mode. Ofc, you can change which notes (or frequencies to be more scientific) are to be included, for example if you change from C Major to A major you don't have all of the same notes although the basic interval formula is the same. Same for other modes, obviously G Mixolydian doesn't have exactly the same tones as E mixolydian. But on the other hand the tones in G Mixolydian are the same as in C Major and the tones in E mixolydian are the same as the tones in A major. Now here's the thing, C major and G mixolydian (just like A Major and E mixolydian) SHOULD (and it is absolutely proper) have the same key signature, i.e. when written down on sheet music they should have the same amount of sharps and flats which in this case is none. They have the same tones, no tone is flatted, no tone is sharped.

The divide into "major", "minor" or "diminished" mode is propably a matter of the chord on the tonic. That however doesn't mean that you can treat lydian and mixolydian as it were ionian (major) or phrygian and dorian as it aeolian (minor) cause it's not the same. Lydian is not pure major or whatever you want to call it, it's pure lydian, sure it's just a sharp fourth that makes any difference but the effect is quite different. Same goes for any other of the modes. Of course you can break the rule, the obvious example is if you go to a huge extent inbetween modes, then it's probably best to decide one key signature for one scale and use accidentals for the other modes. But in your case you clearly want to refer to it as C Mixolydian therefore it only makes perfect sense to use the right key signature. The tones in the C Mixolydian key signature as the same as in D Aeolian, E Locrian, F Ionian etc., all they have in common is one flat on B. Thus the key signature for C Mixolydian is no sharps and one flat (on B). No flats or sharps or is obviously the completely wrong key signature as it makes it looks like it's C Ionian due to the key signature and C being the tonic.

"It is in G Phrygian Dominant (or rather builds on that scale). If G major doesn't apply, as you say - what key signature would, hm?" Well, the tones in the scale (if I understood it right): G, Ab, B, C, D, Eb, F so with "G Major" you have to flat the F# to F natural, A to Ab and E to Eb. If you would use the "C Minor" key siganture you would only need to raise the Bb to B. Simplier to say the least. In Sibelius (dunno if you can do that in Finale but whatever) you can create custom key signatures and it would suit to make the A and E flatted. Btw, the phrygian dominant seems to be a mode on the (lets call it) harmonic minor scale group, the same interval formula but with different starting points. G Phrygian Dominant is relative to C Harmonic Minor (same tones, different tonics).


Now if you don't understand this I don't know what can make you understand this relatively simple concept. In summary every mode is unique and should be treated like a unique mode and not merely as "major" or "minor" (what the klobb would the whole tone scale be for instance then? "augmented"?). Ofc modes and scale groups can be mixed in many different ways in compositions if desired but when basing a composition on a specific mode please write as it should be written for that mode (you wouldn't write your C's in a C major scale as D double flats unless it's a very specific case, the same way you don't use a C major key signature for a piece in C Mixolydian and just flat the B's, I don't know, for fun?). Let the key signature deal with it for your and everyone else's enjoyment (so these kind of situations don't have to happen) and don't tell me mixolydian is major, please.

[Jompa]

How is dorian not minor? How is mixolydian not major? They've got the right thirds for it - the tonic chord is right for it too.
There's no talking out of that this is only your personal opinion (even though you call it proper) - you only prove this with "oh, it's simpler that way, less accidentals", but in the end it's not up to you.

Well, the tones in the scale (if I understood it right): G, Ab, B, C, D, Eb, F so with "G Major" you have to flat the F# to F natural, A to Ab and E to Eb. If you would use the "C Minor" key siganture you would only need to raise the Bb to B. Simplier to say the least.

Wrong, to say the least.
I know you disagree but G Phrygian Dominant is major - there is a major third, the tonic chord is G major - if you say anything against that I really don't get how you can have any feel of a tonic at all. Back to point; "If you use C minor it will be better" <-- Listen to yourself. You are literally stating that one is supposed to use the wrong key signature ONLY to make some accidentals disappear.
Well what are you left with then; a song in G major notated in the C minor key - I mean, not only do you have accidentals not supposed to be in G major (even though it is phrygian dominant), but even the MAJOR THIRD is flattened!!
Using C minor key for a song in G Phrygian Dominant is totally undefendable.

[Ricky]

There aren't just two scales/modes (for instance mixolydian is not a major (ioninan scale), dorian is not a minor (aeolian) scale. Mixolydian is mixolydian, dorian is dorian) or whatever you want to call them, there are countless. You can but it's stupid to use the same "formula" for all of them. It makes no sense like I said and don't tell me I'm wrong for doing it the more correct way. Either way stick to your unlogical way of thinking of modes if you are so hard to convince with simple logic (which has happened in more than one discussion). You like to take things out of context and respond only to a part of it and come up with an excuse why you're right even though you're very wrong. At least you're not the only one, there's a guy on another forum I'm member of which acts about the same way in some discussions. Either way you should learn more about modes and scales.

[FireArrow]

Ok... Phrygian Dominant is great in all, but it's not worth ripping each others eyes out for.

[Ricky]

Either way, want to see more people with my viewpoint or whatever (not saying that it's evidence but music theory isn't really scientific anyways):
http://www.slowplayers.org/SCTLS/modes.htm
http://music.stackexchange.com/questions/930/key-signature-for-writing-in-modes-other-than-major-and-minor
http://tunedb.woodenflute.com/tunedb/how_to_modes.html
http://audio.tutsplus.com/tutorials/music-theory/quick-tip-i-d-p-l-m-a-key-signature-guide/
http://www.standingstones.com/modeharm.html
http://www.mdc.edu/kendall/mtd/Online_Forms/Lab_Online/MHL_Modes_Church.pdf

And so on.

[Jompa]

If I were to start doing what you are doing, then I wouldn't be able to play music with other people -.- Nor would I be able to make music for others.
You stated that I'm not alone, and no, I'm not alone - I have the majority of the musical world on my side, Ricky - because your only argument is about your personal preference, and most people choose music theory over that.
Those sites aren't much proof, they are just a way to explain the theory, after all.