The Post Your Thoughts of the Moment Thread 2

[FireArrow]

It's less of a threat to an American than guns as are guns less of a threat than car accidents. A message, albeit scary, is meaningless if they can't actually, ya'know, be more threatening than household furniture.

[deku_link]

And 12 people died to terrorism in 2012, so let's focus on that? You're not the only one that can red herring.
http://www.start.umd.edu/pubs/START_AmericanTerrorismDeaths_FactSheet_Oct2015.pdf

That's not red herring. If anything, it's false cause. Red herring would imply he changed the subject in a conversation to distract from the topic at hand.

[mikey]

Canadians are such friendly people

[Ruto]

I wonder how everyone would debate without google or their uncle's angry emails, because I keep hearing this argument about laws not being able to stop anything. Right, let's remove copyright law, laws against rape, abuse, incest...because they don't help. There's an additional challenge of looking at someone with a straight face and making these outlandish statements.

@Noc

Does your grandma complain a lot about young people today being glued their screens? But it's still not good to let her watch movies all day even if her presence drives you crazy. I think the same thing about parents getting tablets for their kids to watch. Tell her to enroll in a painting class with other people, I heard that helps you stay sharp and it's fun.

Sometimes I think grandmas shouldn't waste their time on facebook either. I can watch the grammar slowly disappear the longer they've been on...

[mikey]

Does your grandma complain a lot about young people today being glued their screens? But it's still not good to let her watch movies all day even if her presence drives you crazy. I think the same thing about parents getting tablets for their kids to watch. Tell her to enroll in a painting class with other people, I heard that helps you stay sharp and it's fun.

Sometimes I think grandmas shouldn't waste their time on facebook either. I can watch the grammar slowly disappear the longer they've been on...

she's not a super active person to begin with, and she broke her leg about 2 months ago so she has absolutely nothing better to do :/

[deku_link]

I wonder how everyone would debate without google or their uncle's angry emails, because I keep hearing this argument about laws not being able to stop anything. Right, let's remove copyright law, laws against rape, abuse, incest...because they don't help. There's an additional challenge of looking at someone with a straight face and making these outlandish statements.

That's a nice false equivalency you got there. There's a difference between making a law against a crime most of the population agrees is harmful and making a law banning a commodity/weapon/tool that some of the population believes has beneficial purposes. Think prohibition. Did people stop drinking? No, people started mixing bathtub gin in their bathtubs and buying it from the mafia.

[Ruto]

That's a nice false equivalency you got there. There's a difference between making a law against a crime most of the population agrees is harmful and making a law banning a commodity/weapon/tool that some of the population believes has beneficial purposes. Think prohibition. Did people stop drinking? No, people started mixing bathtub gin in their bathtubs and buying it from the mafia.

So the ownership of guns by any untrained hick isn't harmful? What if the owners are parents who keep it lying around so their toddlers can get to them? A gun is a weapon, plain and simple. You kill with it.

Alcohol is fine in moderation AND is (somewhat) controlled. Guns are not. The people caught mixing it during Prohibition were punished by the law (that's why you have laws), but a parent of a kid who accidentally shot themselves can actually get away without any charges.

[deku_link]

So the ownership of guns by any untrained hick isn't harmful? What if the owners are parents who keep it lying around so their toddlers can get to them? A gun is a weapon, plain and simple. You kill with it.

Alcohol is fine in moderation AND is (somewhat) controlled. Guns are not. The people caught mixing it during Prohibition were punished by the law (that's why you have laws), but a parent of a kid who accidentally shot themselves can actually get away without any charges.

I'm going to break this apart bit by bit

"So the ownership of guns by any untrained hick isn't harmful?"
I never said it wasn't, I just said it "has beneficial purposes." People still use guns for hunting and a sense of self security by believing their family is protected.
"What if the owners are parents who keep it lying around so their toddlers can get to them? "
Then they're irresponsible assholes. I don't see how that can be prevented
"A gun is a weapon, plain and simple. You kill with it."
So is a katana, yet people can buy those online easily without the need for registering it.
"Alcohol is fine in moderation AND is (somewhat) controlled. Guns are not."
Any adult can walk into a liquor store with a valid idea and buy some booze. To say guns aren't controlled at all is just false. You have to register the weapon, and if you kill someone with it, they can look at the groove marks left on the bullet and track you down if it's in the system.
"The people caught mixing it during Prohibition were punished by the law (that's why you have laws), but a parent of a kid who accidentally shot themselves can actually get away without any charges."
But the public as a whole really wanted their booze, to the point of paying mafias for it and mixing it in their bathtubs. Doctors would even sign notes for their patients allowing them to get alcohol through medicine or rubbing alcohol to mix in their bathtubs. I'm gonna need sources on that last point.

[Ruto]

Just to clarify when I said "anyone" I meant every Tom, Dick and Harry, even if Dick is drunk 23 hours a day and suffers from mental anguish, and Tom beats his wife. Harry is just Harry.

A sense of security

A false one. Don't police officers need training to own one? There are lots of places that don't have that requirement.

Then they're irresponsible assholes. I don't see how that can be prevented

Buy a gun lock. Which is also not mandatory right now.

So is a katana, yet people can buy those online easily without the need for registering it.

The fake stuff you buy isn't even sharp. Besides, I need to show ID to buy one and even then, it's meant for decoration.

Any adult can walk into a liquor store with a valid idea and buy some booze. To say guns aren't controlled at all is just false. You have to register the weapon, and if you kill someone with it, they can look at the groove marks left on the bullet and track you down if it's in the system.

Adults could buy beer, but kids can't. Adults who buy alcohol for kids get in trouble. The groove marks would help a lot for the dead guy. It's better than preventing his death!

So I talked to a bunch of Estonians who drank like, 3 vodkas on the plane each, so much that they sneaked extra ones on the plane. They got told off by the flight attendant (why does vodka look like water???). You're also comparing a complete ban that was poorly enforced to having gun laws. The guys also told me that everyone drinks as a cultural pastime. I don't see guns in that category.

[BlackDragonSlayer]

So the ownership of guns by any untrained hick isn't harmful?

that some of the population believes has beneficial purposes

Ruto, you seem like you are conveniently ignoring part of deku_link's arguments and/or making broad generalizations that assume that everything would work perfectly as intended. As I said before, ideally, it's nice to think that it would, but realistically, it wouldn't be easy at all. Laws such as those as described during this discussion make things punishable as crimes, but they don't physically prevent people from committing those crimes in the first place (including all those other laws you mentioned! And especially, as mentioned before, if you don't have public support or even ability to effectively enforce your laws!). I think this is all that deku_link is trying to say, but what you're saying in response comes across as needlessly demeaning.

Alcohol is fine in moderation AND is (somewhat) controlled.

Dick is drunk 23 hours a day and suffers from mental anguish

Something seems off here.

[FireArrow]

You guys are pulling fringe cases and using it as a rule rather than exception. No, more gun regulations is not gonna end gun violence. Yes, it would reduce gun violence.

Stop making things more complicated than they are.

[mikey]

does reducing gun violence solve any real problems though

[FireArrow]

not much, just saves a decent number of lives

[BlackDragonSlayer]

You guys are pulling fringe cases and using it as a rule rather than exception. No, more gun regulations is not gonna end gun violence. Yes, it would reduce gun violence.

Stop making things more complicated than they are.

"Fringe cases"? Really? Seems to me like Ruto is the one using "fringe cases," far-fetched comparisons, and idealistic examples.

[deku_link]

You guys are pulling fringe cases and using it as a rule rather than exception. No, more gun regulations is not gonna end gun violence. Yes, it would reduce gun violence.

Stop making things more complicated than they are.

Really though, we need to take this to the politics area so we don't clog up random thoughts of the moment.