The Post Your Thoughts of the Moment Thread 2

[FierceDeity]

We're already reaching the point of unsustainable demand in terms of food and many other natural resources. Fresh water is being depleted drastically(the fucking Colorado River is drying up, thanks to California), massive droughts in the midwest last year, this year in Cali, "super storms" are becoming a yearly routine, thanks to our wonderful friends at Monsanto bacteria is building up antibiotic resistance like crazy in livestock, so we'll likely be experiencing some super bacteria in the future that kills a wole lot of people(disease IS mother nature form of population control, after all).

Then there's always the possibility that we'll simply cause our own extinction thanks to our out of control technological evolution. Which is probably going to end up happening. But hey, animals go extinct. It's just the way nature works, and we're no exception. So enjoy the Earth while you can, because you're gonna be dead some day.

I mostly agree with this except for unsustainability of freshwater. Advances in desalination processes can definitely be made, it's just that we aren't going to make enough of them until we truly need them. So, there will probably be a brief period where it's a major issue, and after that it shouldn't be too bad. That's the problem with humanity, really; we solve a lot of our problems, but not nearly as early as we should. Too many issues are put off as insignificant or nonexistent until the consequences are shoved directly in our faces. That's why global warming is so dangerous, because by the time the consequences are enough to convince current nay-sayers, it'll be too late.

I don't think I'm being that pessimistic, but I still think something could be done.

This. There's a huge difference between saying we're all doomed and pointing out possible situations in which we're all doomed that we should try to avoid. Unfortunately, most people trying to communicate the second one (including myself) often end up sounding like the first one.

[Yugi]

How are people able to make giant walls of text so easily?

[BlackDragonSlayer]

I understood what you meant, I just mean that failed theories in the past don't have any significance regarding substantially differnet theories of the present, at least in this context. The Industrial Revolution was a far different time, in terms of population density and technology.

I never said that either... but the fact that the Industrial Revolution was a far different time just helps to further my point: I mean, who then knew that in the future, we would be able to communicate with people halfway across the world just as easily as we can talk to somebody right next to us!?

This is the scenario that I'm saying we should try to avoid. I never implied that overpopulation means total annihilation of the human race.

I certainly did not say that...

The main problem is this: right now, it would be entirely possible to end world hunger with our resources.

It would be, but you also have to factor in political stability for places like Africa (which is actually a pretty big reason why we're not doing more to help them, and it's very unfortunate).

In a situation of mass global overpopulation, it would not. This "population control" you speak of is most likely to come in the form of China's (mostly past now) solution: strictly limiting childbirth. Nobody wants that, and that's why the idea of individuals making responsible decisions while they still can is so important.

The situation involving "population control" was only theoretical (as I said by "that brings to mind a dystopian future").

Pessimism isn't really the issue, so much as ignorance. If we stay at our current level of resource consumption, humanity will be forced to deal with our resources more responsibly, but the problem is that it might actually get to that point. Change is coming, sure, but it may not be fast enough to prevent actual hardship.

My comment about pessimism was (partially) a joke in reference to a previous comment, but yes, I agree with your comment about ignorance, which is something I also mentioned (relating to the resources).

Well yeah, I heard about the revolutions in agriculture but that's not going to save us because we still need land and stuff to maintain land.

We have land- we just haven't developed it yet. At a certain point, we will run out of land (I don't ever recall saying that we wouldn't), but in a best case scenario, that won't come until a very, very long time (in a realistic situation, it probably won't be very short either- however, I can't find even an estimate of how much land in the world hasn't been developed). Not to mention land that can be repurposed to be used more efficiently. So, it's possible to make maximum usage of land, but just improbable at this current point in time.

"The entire population of Earth can fit in a city" (That's not even an issue, but how will you feed, clothe and sustain all those people? In that same plot of land?"

...
If you have everybody on Earth in a single city, you have the entirety of the Earth to supply resources to provide for their basic needs. Granted, life there probably wouldn't be very good, because of other factors (e.g. getting annoyed by the sheer number of people in the city and the numerous traffic jams ). Again, I say, it's very possible to do, just not entirely feasible at all!

"We have enough oil for 50 years" (Rick Santorum said this in an interview somewhere, he was clearly pulling stats from his ass. Some environmentalists said we'd already reached peak oil, and have resorted to super dirty methods already..oil from sand -.-)

...I'd say that that's actually true (that we have enough oil for around 50 years), from all the information that I can find. Unless we start doubling up on oil usage (or it could go in the opposite way, and we start developing more renewable sources of energy, like solar, wind, etc.). If anything, the "environmentalists" are the ones exaggerating stats (which on paper is a good way to get people to take action, but usually is done the wrong way in the real world). GRANTED, AS I SAID, WE STILL NEED TO FIND BETTER SOURCES OF ENERGY, LIKE SOLAR, WIND, ETC. BEFORE WE EVENTUALLY DO RUN OUT.

I don't think I'm being that pessimistic, but I still think something could be done.

Thinking that overpopulation is "closer than we think" isn't exactly optimistic... I too think that something can be done, which is the basis of my arguments. You seem to be thinking that I'm saying that we don't need to do anything- if you do think that, then you need to reread what I've said...

Saying the Earth is going to be overpopulated isn't a crazy conspiracy theory. 40 billion people is much too high for an estimate, 2 billion people in China and India and less than half of that amount in America, is straining the resources more than you think they are.

I never said that the Earth isn't going to be overpopulated. It's just not going to happen immediately (or very soon), unless we do something that messes us up drastically (like, really drastically).
As I said before, the reason the resources are being strained is because:
1: Their resource usage is highly inefficient (see: Clanker's post). Part of this is fueled by inaction.
2: They don't have the resources in the first place- the resources are available elsewhere, but they just can't afford/obtain them.

This. There's a huge difference between saying we're all doomed and pointing out possible situations in which we're all doomed that we should try to avoid. Unfortunately, most people trying to communicate the second one (including myself) often end up sounding like the first one.

From everything I've read from you, you're pointing out the problems, and essentially saying that we won't be able to avoid them at all. What I'm doing is pointing out situations, and saying that we'll be able to avoid them if we do something about them...
You, on the other hand, seem to be thinking that I'm outright denying the problems (because of my hopeful comments about such things) rather than proposing ways to deal with them (perhaps I'm being too optimistic for people? ).

[DrP]

Fresh water is being depleted drastically(the fucking Colorado River is drying up, thanks to California), massive droughts in the midwest last year, this year in CaliFORNIA

Yep. California IS a desert after all.

Where I live (in the Bay Area), it wasn't that bad (think yellow - the name escapes me) but where I am from (Orange County/LA area), we've been in extreme drought since the late '90s (and they had to do water rationing for a few years).

But now the Bay Area is in extreme drought... and this January has been one of the warmest Januaries in a long time.

So the fact that we are getting rain in San Francisco is HUGE HUGE HUGE deal.

The problem is, where most of CA's population centers are, the least accessible to fresh water they are. California is unsustainable for a long-run in terms of water. Soon our big reservoirs will be depleted, the Colorado river reduced to a stream.

In terms of everything else, people just don't realize what they are using and don't look at the macro perspective. It's like the fact that American Airlines removed one olive from their salads that they served to their first class passengers and they SAVED about $3,000,000 a year. That's something people don't realize. People are beginning to get it though.

And about China, soon their country will be uninhabitable because of the pollution that will act like volcanic ash and can kill you in a matter of hours. I guess the "five year plan" doesn't intend on investing in research to create air scrubbers and/or turn the pollution into energy (it's thoughts like this that make me regret not being an engineer).

[BlackDragonSlayer]

Yep. California IS a desert after all.

The problem is, where most of CA's population centers are, the least accessible to fresh water they are. California is unsustainable for a long-run in terms of water. Soon our big reservoirs will be depleted, the Colorado river reduced to a stream.

Sometimes I wonder why we live in California... It's great in the winter, but the winter doesn't last for too long (over here, we're already experiencing summer-like temperatures during the day!).

[Clanker37]

Wow, I didn't know that you were capable of a drought in the US. Australia has just come out of a long drought. We have desalination plants so we can use water from the sea and recycle toilet water. When the war on water comes, we're fricken ready.

[DrP]

Sometimes I wonder why we live in California... It's great in the winter, but the winter doesn't last for too long (over here, we're already experiencing summer-like temperatures during the day!).

Hence the reason I want to move out.. our summers are too hot (again, inland orange county gets pretty hot) and the winters aren't cold enough!!

I WANT TO WEAR MY PEACOATS, SCARVES AND SWEATERS GODDAMMIT!

Wow, I didn't know that you were capable of a drought in the US. Australia has just come out of a long drought. We have desalination plants so we can use water from the sea and recycle toilet water. When the war on water comes, we're fricken ready.

We have desalination plants in LA, but they were decommissioned because they were too expensive to operate and CA is a mini-federal government in terms of debt.

[Nebbles]

Not winter sounds so great though. I'm tired of freezing my butt off.

[BlackDragonSlayer]

Not winter sounds so great though. I'm tired of freezing my butt off.

All of my family complains about the cold when it does come... Nobody's happy. :<

[Nebbles]

But it's bitter cold here, plus windchill. My hands are actually hurting it's so damn cold.

[BlackDragonSlayer]

But it's bitter cold here, plus windchill. My hands are actually hurting it's so damn cold.

My family complains about the summers here, and how they can't wait for the winter, but when winter comes, they complain about how cold it is, and can't wait until it gets warmer (which is what I was referring to in my post). Odd logic, I say. :S

[Nebbles]

Ahh, I see. I used to not mind the winter, but it's been to cold for my liking. Also, snow's annoying to drive in.

[Ruto]

I read somewhere that we have enough food, just that it's unevenly distributed. Too much is in First world countries and not enough in Third world. At KFC, I have to through out any food we don't sell (and now employees can't even take it home >_>). The amount of food I've thrown out could feed a family for a life-time (and make them very fat).

Huh maybe you can talk to the manager about donating the food to a food bank?

We have land- we just haven't developed it yet. At a certain point, we will run out of land (I don't ever recall saying that we wouldn't), but in a best case scenario, that won't come until a very, very long time (in a realistic situation, it probably won't be very short either- however, I can't find even an estimate of how much land in the world hasn't been developed). Not to mention land that can be repurposed to be used more efficiently. So, it's possible to make maximum usage of land, but just improbable at this current point in time.

It isn't possible to develop all the land on Earth and have it still be habitable. You have to leave some so at least animals and plants are able to live in them too. We've already cut down enough forests for farmland and grazing and that causes lots of problems for everyone. Haiti is a good example...since they've cut down so much of the native trees, which were supposed to provide as a barrier for tropical storms and prevent soil erosion, which is why it's so hard for their economy to recover. Don't forget the Dust Bowl which happened because people were tilling too much land for crops.

If you have everybody on Earth in a single city, you have the entirety of the Earth to supply resources to provide for their basic needs. Granted, life there probably wouldn't be very good, because of other factors (e.g. getting annoyed by the sheer number of people in the city and the numerous traffic jams ). Again, I say, it's very possible to do, just not entirely feasible at all!

It's not possible. Everyone would be choking in their own sewage.

...I'd say that that's actually true (that we have enough oil for around 50 years), from all the information that I can find. Unless we start doubling up on oil usage (or it could go in the opposite way, and we start developing more renewable sources of energy, like solar, wind, etc.). If anything, the "environmentalists" are the ones exaggerating stats (which on paper is a good way to get people to take action, but usually is done the wrong way in the real world).
I never said that the Earth isn't going to be overpopulated. It's just not going to happen immediately (or very soon), unless we do something that messes us up drastically (like, really drastically).
As I said before, the reason the resources are being strained is because:
1: Their resource usage is highly inefficient (see: Clanker's post). Part of this is fueled by inaction.
2: They don't have the resources in the first place- the resources are available elsewhere, but they just can't afford/obtain them.
From everything I've read from you, you're pointing out the problems, and essentially saying that we won't be able to avoid them at all. What I'm doing is pointing out situations, and saying that we'll be able to avoid them if we do something about them...
You, on the other hand, seem to be thinking that I'm outright denying the problems (because of my hopeful comments about such things) rather than proposing ways to deal with them (perhaps I'm being too optimistic for people? ).

*facepalm* I don't think you know much at all about how we get energy. If people have resorted to mining oil from sand or drilling protected lands, I would say we're reaching the bottom of the barrel.

1. Efficiency can only take you so far. Do you know the laws of thermodynamics? The most efficient process I know of is ATP synthesis and that's still less than 40%. If we can get that kind of efficiency in everything we do, we would be really lucky, but eventually it's going to wind down like everything else. Inaction by itself won't solve much, but admitting there's a problem is always a first step...but it won't be possible for everything to be what it was 50 years ago.

None of your solutions are feasible based on what we know. We can't drill for ice in Europa or Halley's comet, etc. How will you make rocket fuel to reach something that far? You are denying the problems by saying it won't be so bad, there will be enough oil, technology will get out of this mess just like every other mess...

2. Resources are being strained because they're finite.

[Zunawe]

I find it difficult to speak whilst playing the piano. Somebody here can probably pull out some brain science about "multitasking" and such; I just find it odd every time I come across it.

Also, you guys talk about the weather a lot on this thread.

[SlowPokemon]

I find it difficult to speak whilst playing the piano. Somebody here can probably pull out some brain science about "multitasking" and such; I just find it odd every time I come across it.

Also, you guys talk about the weather a lot on this thread.

I hate when people try to talk to me while I'm playing the piano. Most fucking annoying thing ever. It's not like I can just set my hands on autopilot and have a conversation.

And yeah I hate people talking about the weather. I personally need a little more brain stimulation than precipitation can provide.