TWG CXIX Host Feast-Ups

[ThatHiddenCharacter]

- Both Divine Beings cannot vote, cannot be lynched, cannot be wolf'd, cannot be targeted by any power, and do not count towards either team (Hence why they are called Aloof). They can use their seering power during the night, post in the topic and send or receive PMs.

So, if I'm understanding this right, even if the player behind the Aloof Seer account dies as the Chosen One, they still continue to play with the Aloof Seer account?

[davy]

So, if I'm understanding this right, even if the player behind the Aloof Seer account dies as the Chosen One, they still continue to play with the Aloof Seer account?

Correct

[SpecsFlyer17]

So I submitted this as a funny Thanksgiving game. If you all want to play it, I'm happy to host, but some more experienced hosts will likely have some more creative games. This can easily be re-themed for any season; it's similar to a base TWG.

Ok, first let me strip the thematics from the game for a bit, so it becomes more clear what we are working with:

Wolves
1. Wolf
2. Wolf Painter

Humans
3. Seer
4. Guardian - Cannot self guard
5. One-time Wolfsbane - is told he is a normal human
6. Human
7. Human
8. Miller

9. Wolfsbane Brutal Fool - Loses and is removed from the game by D3. Win con is non-overriding. Counts towards the humans for parity.

Items:
Dry Turkey x3 (there are no standardized names for items afaik)


Next, some clarification questions: "by day 3" means that the fool can still win when they are lynched day 3, correct?

Yes, day 3 is still an option for the Fool. I thought about making it D2, but I thought having a 2 death-lynch that early in the game may be a little overpowered for the wolves.

"Will only be in play through D3." means that the Turkey will not be redistributed from N4 onwards? In that case, I think its clearer to specify that it will only be distributed N1, N2 and N3.

Yeah, N1, N2, and N3.

Are the players that receive the turkey aware of which other players received the turkey?

Yes, that was the intent.

What happens if the three players that receive the turkey all vote for different players?

I'd hope for some collaboration, but in the case of a tie, randomized.

The "x3" is a little confusing to me. It suggests that it can be used three times, but reading the discription suggest there is only one player that can be targeted to lose their vote.

Sorry. 3 players receive it, they vote on one player to be targeted.

What, if anything, will be announced if a player was targeted for wolfing, but did not die?

"No one was wolfed tonight, or something along those lines". No name reveal.


If no wolfings are blocked, wolves will achieve parity after two mislynches by end of N3, meaning there will not be a D3 for the fool to lose, nor a N4 for the turkey to be redistributed.

Correct.

However, with a guardian, a wolfsbane and a one-time wolfsbane, and no investigative powers for the wolves, it is pretty likely for at least one wolfing to be blocked. While this may seem to award the humans a second mislynch before losing on the third, in reality, another player will be lost either by the fool's brutal power, or by them leaving the game on D3, meaning that even after two mislynches and a correct lynch, parity will be achieved by end of N4. This is of course, unless the brutal ends up taking a wolf down, but the chances for that aren't very high.

Having only one mislynch before losing the game is quite low. We've had it recently on nothing special 2 and the Lantern Keeper, and both of those were clear wolf victories. I'd suggest adding something to the game to give the humans a third mislynch. Perhaps by making the game a D1 start.

I see what you're saying. When I read the Host Guide, I saw that the ideal number of mislynches is 2-3. I figured by having 2-wolf-parity happen on N3 (the critical phase), it made a good balance; if the wolves don't fail a wolfing, it takes 2 mislynches, while if they do, it takes 3 mislyches. I agree that second mislynch loss makes for a shorter, uneventful game. However, I see what you're saying, as even with a correct lynch, N4 could easily be the critical phase, when it could be wise making D4 the critical phase, giving the town an extra chance to win. I'll think about that. Of course, if a wolfing is blocked (which there are few ways that can happen), the game gets extended.

Also, I'm not sure what the Dry Turkey is doing, other than being thematic. It seems to just be a way to give the wolves an even easier time controlling the lynch D2 and D3, if at least of them happens to be in the pool of three players that receives it.

Hey man, I was promised bonus points for making the game Thanksgiving themed  . In the guide, I read that giving players control (or at least, the illusion of control) makes the game more enjoyable. I figured this was a good way to add something that will likely be fairly insignificant but allowed players to contribute. However, I do see what you're saying that it could be a bit overpowered for the wolves on D2 and D3. I could restrict it to D1 and D2 only.

[davy]

I see what you're saying. When I read the Host Guide, I saw that the ideal number of mislynches is 2-3. I figured by having 2-wolf-parity happen on N3 (the critical phase), it made a good balance; if the wolves don't fail a wolfing, it takes 2 mislynches, while if they do, it takes 3 mislyches. I agree that second mislynch loss makes for a shorter, uneventful game. However, I see what you're saying, as even with a correct lynch, N4 could easily be the critical phase, when it could be wise making D4 the critical phase, giving the town an extra chance to win. I'll think about that.

So, the mislynch number is a little confusing, because it can both refer to the number of mislynches the humans can make and then still win the game, or the number of mislynches required for the wolves to win. The hosting guide is talking about 2 or 3 mislynches still allowing the human team to win (and them losing on the 3rd or 4th mislynch). Your game has the humans winning only if they mislynch once or fewer, and losing on the 2nd mislynch.

Of course, if a wolfing is blocked (which there are few ways that can happen), the game gets extended.

If a single wolfing is blocked, the game gets extended, but (unless the fool brutal's a wolf) the number of mislynches humans can make does not go up. That only happens if at least two wolfings are blocked.

In the guide, I read that giving players control (or at least, the illusion of control) makes the game more enjoyable.

Fair enough

I figured this was a good way to add something that will likely be fairly insignificant but allowed players to contribute. However, I do see what you're saying that it could be a bit overpowered for the wolves on D2 and D3.

I think the problem is that the ability is a bit too insignificant for the human players, while being to strong for the wolves at LYLO. I suggest changing the mechanic to some different effect (haven't really spend the time thinking about what effect exactly, and I also don't want to influence the design decisions too much).

I could restrict it to D1 and D2 only.

Since D2 could be LYLO, I'm not sure that'd be enough.

[davy]

Also, I want to make clear that I'm not trying to belittle your game, I just want to make sure that when a game gets chosen I've put in as much effort as possible to make sure it isn't unbalanced.

[SpecsFlyer17]

So, the mislynch number is a little confusing, because it can both refer to the number of mislynches the humans can make and then still win the game, or the number of mislynches required for the wolves to win. The hosting guide is talking about 2 or 3 mislynches still allowing the human team to win (and them losing on the 3rd or 4th mislynch). Your game has the humans winning only if they mislynch once or fewer, and losing on the 2nd mislynch.

Oh, I see. I interpreted the guide incorrectly. So according to the guide, the lantern game wasn't balanced optimally, since 2 mislynches did not allow the humans to win?

If a single wolfing is blocked, the game gets extended, but (unless the fool brutal's a wolf) the number of mislynches humans can make does not go up. That only happens if at least two wolfings are blocked.

Making it a D1 (not going to use the D0 terminology) start could effectively solve that problem. Even with no wolfing blocks, D3 would the Lylo, not D2.

I think the problem is that the ability is a bit too insignificant for the human players, while being to strong for the wolves at LYLO. I suggest changing the mechanic to some different effect (haven't really spend the time thinking about what effect exactly, and I also don't want to influence the design decisions too much).
Since D2 could be LYLO, I'm not sure that'd be enough.

I'll think about that. If D3 is the first possible LyLo, it may not be as big of a deal.

Also, I want to make clear that I'm not trying to belittle your game, I just want to make sure that when a game gets chosen I've put in as much effort as possible to make sure it isn't unbalanced.

My feelings have already been hurt, so it's whatever. Reported to mods.

jk, I really appreciate the help. Even if we don't play this one, thinking about this kind of stuff will only help down the road!

[XiaoMigros]

im leaning towards specs game now fwiw, i cant quite wrap my head around the others lol

[davy]

Oh, I see. I interpreted the guide incorrectly. So according to the guide, the lantern game wasn't balanced optimally, since 2 mislynches did not allow the humans to win?

On its own, losing on the 2nd mislynch would have been unbalanced in favor of the wolves, but as compensation, the human team got two forms of seering where all reds were wolves, so I deemed that to be balanced enough (and then because in the game no red players ended up being seered, it turned the game back towards wolves' favor, but you can't prepare for every kind of randomness).

Making it a D1 (not going to use the D0 terminology) start could effectively solve that problem. Even with no wolfing blocks, D3 would the Lylo, not D2.

This still makes humans lose on the 2nd mislynch if no wolfings are blocked and the fool isn't lynched or the fool takes a human down with them, but at that point I don't deem it inbalanced anymore. N1 start with 10 players would be better, but we don't quite have that luxury right now.

I'll think about that. If D3 is the first possible LyLo, it may not be as big of a deal.

D1 start alliveates the issue, but if there is no night phase before D1, it'd mean the turkey is only in effect on D2, and I'm not sure that was what you were going for.

[SpecsFlyer17]

On its own, losing on the 2nd mislynch would have been unbalanced in favor of the wolves, but as compensation, the human team got two forms of seering where all reds were wolves, so I deemed that to be balanced enough (and then because in the game no red players ended up being seered, it turned the game back towards wolves' favor, but you can't prepare for every kind of randomness).

This still makes humans lose on the 2nd mislynch if no wolfings are blocked and the fool isn't lynched or the fool takes a human down with them, but at that point I don't deem it inbalanced anymore. N1 start with 10 players would be better, but we don't quite have that luxury right now.

Does it? 4 humans are lynched D1, N1, D2, N2, which brings the balance to 3 humans vs 2 wolves. That allows for a D3 LyLo.

D1 start alliveates the issue, but if there is no night phase before D1, it'd mean the turkey is only in effect on D2, and I'm not sure that was what you were going for.

Could do a split phase on D1, where target votes are due 24hrs into the phase, then resume normally for N1/D2. Idk, I'll think more.

[davy]

Does it? 4 humans are lynched D1, N1, D2, N2, which brings the balance to 3 humans vs 2 wolves. That allows for a D3 LyLo.

Actually with 4 humans lost the first 4 phases D3 has 2 wolves vs 2 humans 1 fool. Even if a wolf is lynched, that will leave 1 wolf vs 2 humans (as the fool leaves the game at EoD) meaning that the N3 wolfing needs to be blocked to prevent a wolf victory.

[SpecsFlyer17]

Actually with 4 humans lost the first 4 phases D3 has 2 wolves vs 2 humans 1 fool. Even if a wolf is lynched, that will leave 1 wolf vs 2 humans (as the fool leaves the game at EoD) meaning that the N3 wolfing needs to be blocked to prevent a wolf victory.

Would you consider that balanced? I feel like by that point, there's a lot that has to go the wolves way prior. No failed wolfings, no wolves lynches, Fool doesn't take down a wolf.

[davy]

Would you consider that balanced? I feel like by that point, there's a lot that has to go the wolves way prior. No failed wolfings, no wolves lynches, Fool doesn't take down a wolf.

Yeah, as I said in #37, favored for the wolves, but not unbalanced.

[SpecsFlyer17]

Revised rules for now.

The Thanksgiving Dinner Challenge



Boomers
1. Boomer
2. Rich Boomer

Cool Family
3. Crazy Aunt
4. Protective Mother
5. Overweight Uncle
6. Cousin
7. Cousin
8. Cool Grandpa

9. Weird Emo Cousin

Items:
Dry Turkey: Three random players will get served some terrible dry turkey on each night. Bleh. They must vote on one player of their choice to eat the turkey. Any player is fair game, not just the three holders. As a result, the targeted player's vote on the next day will not count. Resets at the beginning of each night. If a holder is killed, the item is removed from play. Will only be in play on D1 and D2. On D1, votes will be due 24hr before phase change.

Role Descriptions:
Boomer: They always make family gatherings difficult. They're always judging you, claiming how much harder things were back "when they were your age". The house they bought for $10.99 back in 1980 is now worth $700k, yet they complain how you haven't bought a house yet. Don't even mention politics.
Rich Boomer: Each night, this player can change their color or another player's color to any color. Resets each new night.

Crazy Aunt: Very weird and spunky, but fun to be around. She's into that crazy physic stuff too. Each night, she can submit one name to learn their color. Seer role.
Protective Mother: She means well, but is very protective and particular about things. Each night, she can submit one name to protect from the wolfing. If said player is wolfed, the wolfing will fail. Cannot be used on themselves, and the ability is optional.
Overweight Uncle: A pretty cool guy, but always seems to have a bit too much to eat. His extra weight allows him to survive one wolfing without dying. Does not apply to lynching. Refuses to believe he's overweight thought, so his role PM says he's just a cousin.
Cousin: Just a normal cousin that you see a few times a year. Pretty cool to be with, but nothing special.
Cool Grandpa: Despite his age, Grandpa rocks. Unfortunately, he will flag red if seer'd by the Crazy Aunt. Thinks they're a cousin.

Weird Emo Cousin: He is quiet, antisocial, always looks angry, and probably doesn't have a whole lot going for him. He's running out of hope and really just wants to leave the dinner table. His goal is to be lynched by D3. If he is successful in doing so, one random player who voted from him will also be lynched. If he fails to be lynched by D3, he loses and is removed from the game. Cannot be wolfed; a wolfing attempt against him will fail.

Other Rules:
D1 start.
No cardflips.
Instakills are enabled, phantoms are in play.
PMs are permitted.
Dry Turkey votes must be individually cast; any vote sent in a group PM will not count.
If a Dry Turkey item holder is wolfed or lynched, the item is permanently removed from play. The holders are know to each other.
If a wolfing fails, the target is not revealed publicly.

Win Conditions:
Boomers: Achieve even number of boomers and cool family members + Weird Emo Cousin.
Cool Family Members: Remove all Boomers from play.
Weird Emo Cousin: See role above.

[A# Minor]

specs what happens if the weird emo cousin votes for himself and the randomizer chooses him to die along with himself

[SpecsFlyer17]

specs what happens if the weird emo cousin votes for himself and the randomizer chooses him to die along with himself

No restriction on voting for himself. He isn't included in the random selection.