TWG CXXIV: Host Heat-Ups

[BlackDragonSlayer]

how bout this weather huh

Games should be built around 6-7 players, as per the most recent activity poll. Hosting poll will go up end of day on Friday, July 26th.

Hosts:
1.
2.
...

[BlackDragonSlayer]

If nobody submits a game, the topic will keep going until someone does

[SpecsFlyer17]

I can't commit to hosting with my work schedule until a few more months, but I'm gladly down to play.

[BlackDragonSlayer]

Maybe I'll try and cook up a game. Might take a couple days though.

[Nana1Popo2]

Well, this seems a bit out of my comfort zone here, but maybe I'll give it a shot?
What's funny is I brought TWG to my Discord community a couple years back and it went over well, but here I feel like the expectations are higher to submit ideas...  Using the mafia wiki, I saw a role that I thought was interesting and figured I'd formulate something revolving around it... Whether or not it is chosen, I'd appreciate the balancing help! Also, I do not have to be the host for this, if someone else wishes to pick it up.

TWG: I'm Not Dead Yet!

A game where being killed doesn't necessarily mean you are silenced...

Voting and night kills happen normally. However, if you are killed by a wolf, you are reduced to a stump. You will be allowed to continue to post in the game thread during your pre-determined Day. Every Stump will be given a corresponding day from 2 through 4, which will allow that dead player to resume in-thread chat for that day only, before resuming death the following night.

There are 7 Stumps (including one wolf) and there will be [at least] two randomly-determined distributions of each Day number assigned. In the end, there will be two players assigned Day 2, two players assigned Day 3, and two players assigned Day 4. The seventh player will have one of those three options; the result of which will not be made public.

Wolves:
1. Wolf Stump: Normal wolf.
2. Lumberjack Wolf: Normal wolf. Every Night, you may target a player to be checked for termites (seered). At the end of the night, you will learn that player's color and Day assignment.

If the Wolf Stump is eliminated, the Lumberjack Wolf may only use one of its abilities: wolf kill or seer.

Humans:
3. Human Stump
4. Human Stump
5. Human Stump
6. Human Stump
7. Human Stump
8. Termite-Infested Stump: Knows their role. When eliminated by town, is granted the ability to kill any other player as they die.

If the Termite-Infested Stump suspects they will be eliminated, they may PM the host with a fail-safe if they will not not be around at Day's end. A 2-hour Twilight window may be granted to submit their decision. They must choose a target, otherwise kitb will occur.

Win Conditions:
- Wolves win when all humans are dead or they have at least 50% of the voting power.
- Humans win when both wolves are dead.

Game Rules:
- D1 start.
- Instas are OFF. Phantoms are in play for anyone who does not submit a vote, however "no vote" can be an option. Wolves may also choose not to kill.
- Dead Stumps posting in chat do not can contribute to the vote count.
- Cardflips are OFF.
- Day phases will be 48 hours. Night phases will be 24 hours.

Balancing Questions:
! Is Day distribution too confusing? Should it be pre-determined Odd vs. Even Days instead of numbered? I figured numbered could be a little more controlled, than potentially having the chat blow up on Day 4 or something.
!! Should there not even be a Twilight window granted for the Termite-Infested Stump? Should it be 6 hours instead due to potential time zone differences?
!!! Does this setup feel too town-sided?

[davy]

An 8-player 2-wolves game is usually wolf-sided, as humans can afford only one mislynch. Day start and wolves win at parity makes that a little worse, since humans now have to find the wolves in a bigger pool. Brutal human is always a bit of a gamble. Either they hit a wolf and allow the humans an additional mislynch or it just shrinks the human pool if they hit another human (mislynch number remains the same since wolves win at parity).

Also, I think D4 is not going to happen unless humans skip lynches which is a little awkward for the players that roll D4.

Have you considered allowing the stumps to vote on the day they are allowed to play when dead? That'll make it harder for the wolves to control the lynch during later stages of the game and may make the game more balanced.

[Nana1Popo2]

An 8-player 2-wolves game is usually wolf-sided, as humans can afford only one mislynch. Day start and wolves win at parity makes that a little worse, since humans now have to find the wolves in a bigger pool. Brutal human is always a bit of a gamble. Either they hit a wolf and allow the humans an additional mislynch or it just shrinks the human pool if they hit another human (mislynch number remains the same since wolves win at parity).

Also, I think D4 is not going to happen unless humans skip lynches which is a little awkward for the players that roll D4.

Have you considered allowing the stumps to vote on the day they are allowed to play when dead? That'll make it harder for the wolves to control the lynch during later stages of the game and may make the game more balanced.

I considered that the humans might take the option to not vote D1, but if we started N1, and someone dies with a D2 roll, they could still talk which might be beneficial... I was worried the N1 start would give the wolves the upstart, but the idea behind this one was having those who get voted out early the chance to still have a voice.

True, I just did more math, and D4 could be hard to get to.

Hmm, I hadn't considered it! But I understand the intent. Gives more reason for wolves to use their Day seering more importance than just "oh they'll be able to talk, but thats it". I like that adjustment! Considerations include three people having a D3 roll and then the voting power is upped tremendously at that point? Or could that still swing?

The Brutal/Vengeful Human is meant more to punish the humans for mislynching, but I can see it as also being strong for wolves..

[BlackDragonSlayer]

TWG: I'm Not Dead Yet!

So, if I'm understanding things correctly, all Stumps, including the Wolf Stump, are assigned a Day 2-4 at random, and if they die before then they still get to post on that day?

Davy, do you think getting rid of a wolf would make the game more balanced? It would also make the game for 7 players, which might be more manageable to fill given recent TWG activity.

[Nana1Popo2]

So, if I'm understanding things correctly, all Stumps, including the Wolf Stump, are assigned a Day 2-4 at random, and if they die before then they still get to post on that day?

That was the intent, correct! Die to *wolfings*, though.

Davy, do you think getting rid of a wolf would make the game more balanced? It would also make the game for 7 players, which might be more manageable to fill given recent TWG activity.

If a wolf was removed, would there perhaps just be the Lumberjack Wolf? Would they still have to choose between the two abilities? Because kill + seer 2 things feels a bit strong, no?

I do agree about recent TWG activity, though...

[Oricorio]

If a wolf was removed, would there perhaps just be the Lumberjack Wolf? Would they still have to choose between the two abilities? Because kill + seer 2 things feels a bit strong, no?

The wolf seer doesn't really seem too powerful in this setup though? There are no night action-using PRs, so the only real benefits would be finding the Vengeful and maybe learning the optimal times to wolf someone, but I don't foresee that being too huge a factor in decisionmaking except perhaps to secure parity by killing someone they know won't come back to life

The Brutal/Vengeful Human is meant more to punish the humans for mislynching, but I can see it as also being strong for wolves..

The problem is that, since they're aware of their identity, they can just claim N0 and be confirmed town (wolves cc'ing would just out them in the long run), so if the purpose is to punish town, it simply won't have the intended effect.

[Nana1Popo2]

The problem is that, since they're aware of their identity, they can just claim N0 and be confirmed town (wolves cc'ing would just out them in the long run), so if the purpose is to punish town, it simply won't have the intended effect.

Ah, hadnt considered that. Should they not know their role, then? Then everyone who suspects being lynched would just submit names with the idea they may be the role?

[davy]

Davy, do you think getting rid of a wolf would make the game more balanced? It would also make the game for 7 players, which might be more manageable to fill given recent TWG activity.

That would at least put the number of mislynches affordable to humans back at 2, assuming no brutal shenanigans. If the brutal hits a human, we're back at just 1 affordable mislynch. Additionally, single wolf games pose the problem that a random lucky lynch (or brutal hit) can instantly end the game, making them quite swingy.

Also, at what point are we going to call host sign-ups and let N1p2 host his game?

[BlackDragonSlayer]

Also, at what point are we going to call host sign-ups and let N1p2 host his game?

I think it's safe to say N1P2 is the only host contender this time around; I just wanna make sure the game is balanced before we go ahead with player sign-ups.

If you believe the game is balanced enough as-is, we can go ahead, but I was assuming there'd be more changes based on feedback thus far.

[Nana1Popo2]

If the thought of going down to one wolf is still on the table, what about the option of substituting the second wolf slot to a Tanner or third party self-destructive role?
Part of me feels if the wolf gets killed early then game is over, similar to if the Vengeful gets killed; a lot can be decided quickly.

The third party would still give added bad-guy chaos, but idk.. perhaps it would just provide more cover for the wolf.

Just thinking! As an inexperienced balance-r 

[BlackDragonSlayer]

I would be in favor of removing one of the wolf roles and changing one of the humans to a third party whose main goal is disruptive to the humans moreso than the wolves. Maybe make the Termite-Infested Stump the third party, and have their wincon either be:
- Surviving until the end of the game.
OR
- Dying and hitting a human with their power.

1 wolf, 5 humans, and 1 third party seems... alright? The only issue there is that the game might only have 2 lynches, which doesn't give a lot of opportunity to actually make sure of the gimmick (but I think that's just an issue of there not being enough players period, which isn't really something we can work around).

EDIT: What are other people's thoughts on adding a Guardian or a one-use Reviver? That might help extend the game a bit which allows proper use of the gimmick.