[SWITCH] Paper Mario: The Origami King - "Exploring Shangri-Spa" by Latios212

[Zeta]

Submission Information:
Series: Paper Mario
Game: Paper Mario: The Origami King
Console: Nintendo Switch
Title: Exploring Shangri-Spa
Instrumentation Solo Piano
Arranger: Latios212

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[Latios212]

One of many super intriguing pieces from Origami King. This one builds such a strange atmosphere.

[mastersuperfan]

Hot take here and I'm going to stick to my guns on this: I disagree that most of the piece is in 3/4 and believe that most of it should be written differently. The time signature changes around a bit throughout the piece, so I'm going to break down how I hear it, section by section:

m1-8 and m53-56: These are the only parts of the piece that I would agree are unambiguously in 3/4, based on both the low horn pattern and the percussion.

m9-16 and m25-32: I hear this very distinctly in 6/8 and am confident that this is what the time signature should be here. That said, since the sheet's written in 3/4, I'm presuming that there will be some disagreement about the time signature in this section. There are two main aspects that define this clearly as 6/8 for me. First is the background harp, which plays in dotted quarter notes. (It's true that the harp also plays in dotted quarter notes in m1-8, but in m9-16, the 3/4 percussion is no longer present, so the harp part becomes the main underlying rhythmic component.) Second is the melodic phrasing of the horn, particularly in m10 and m14. The horn has an emphasized tenuto feel on the first and fourth eighth notes but plays staccato on the other notes, which is incredibly characteristic of 6/8.

m17-24: This section is 3/4 alternating with 6/8 (m17/19/21/23 in 3/4, m18/20/22/24 in 6/8). I think this should be pretty evident based on both the melody and the low rhythmic horn part. It would probably be okay to notate this in a single time signature to be continuous with m9-16 and m25+, but given how distinct the alternating pattern is, I think it would be better to write out the changing time signatures explicitly.

m33-36: Time signature here probably depends most on the context of the surrounding measures since there's not a lot in the way of distinct rhythms here. Since I hear m21-32 and m37 in 6/8, I hear this part strongly in 6/8 as well.

m37: I hear the subdivisions the same way as you've written, but to me, m25-52 all sounds like a continuous time signature, so I would write this in 6/8 instead of 3/8.

Interested in hearing other people's opinions on this since (like most 3/4 vs. 6/8 conversations have tended to be) I don't think there's going to be a consensual agreement reached easily here.

[Khunjund]

Here is my opinion (if you care to hear it):

• I clearly hear measures 1–8 in 3/4.
• Measures 9–16 and mm. 17–24 (and so mm. 25–32 as well) feel like alternating 3/4–6/8. The downbeats and rhythmic groupings in e.g. measures 9 and 17 clearly split the measure into three beats, like measures 10 and 18 split it into two. I think it's probably fine to leave it in 3/4 the whole way, since the triplets in mm. 12, 16, and 28 would be far less clean in 6/8, and there's some polyrhythm in measure 24 for instance (right hand in 3/4, left in 6/8), but I would at least slur eighths four and five of measure 10, etc., together.
  By the way, I hear the bassoon in measure 22 as going up twice G1–D2–G2 and back down G2–D2–G1.
• Measures 37–52 should be written in 6/8, since every phrase in the piece so far (except the transitional passage in mm. 33–36) has been an eight-measure period divided symmetrically into two phrases of 4 measures, and I don't see why this should be an exception considering it's essentially the same.
  By the way, I'm pretty sure the left-hand chords in mm. 37 and 38 are G (I don't hear an F, at least not at that height), Bn both times, Db, and the chord in m. 40 is F-Ab-Bn. Also, since this section is mostly written in sharps and the left hand here doesn't fit into the melody's ethnic mode, I would be tempted to write it all in sharps (gives you a nice G#dim>A in mm. 40–41 too).
• I would keep mm. 53–56 in 3/4 because of the right hand motif, and the fact that the left hand used the dotted rhythm to establish 3/4 in the opening.

Peace.

[Zeila]

m9-16 and m25-32: I hear this very distinctly in 6/8 and am confident that this is what the time signature should be here. That said, since the sheet's written in 3/4, I'm presuming that there will be some disagreement about the time signature in this section. There are two main aspects that define this clearly as 6/8 for me. First is the background harp, which plays in dotted quarter notes. (It's true that the harp also plays in dotted quarter notes in m1-8, but in m9-16, the 3/4 percussion is no longer present, so the harp part becomes the main underlying rhythmic component.) Second is the melodic phrasing of the horn, particularly in m10 and m14. The horn has an emphasized tenuto feel on the first and fourth eighth notes but plays staccato on the other notes, which is incredibly characteristic of 6/8.

I agree with D3ath regarding the time signatures overall, and in m9-16 I still hear some faint auxiliary percussion that seems to accent on beat 3

By the way, I'm pretty sure the left-hand chords in mm. 37 and 38 are G (I don't hear an F, at least not at that height), Bn both times, Db, and the chord in m. 40 is F-Ab-Bn. Also, since this section is mostly written in sharps and the left hand here doesn't fit into the melody's ethnic mode, I would be tempted to write it all in sharps (gives you a nice G#dim>A in mm. 40–41 too).

I agree with measure 37 but I hear something different for the rest...

The bassoon(?) part that actually comes on the quarter notes are the lowest three notes of measures 37-39 and then F-Bn-D in measure 40, while the F, Gb, E, and Ab come from the harp part in measures 37-40 respectively

Aside from that, I didn't really check over it but measures 22 and 24 stood out to me because the LH sounds like it goes G-D-G(high)-G(low)-D-G(high) in m22 and it seems like the LH should play two A's on beat 3 of m24

[mastersuperfan]

• Measures 9–16 and mm. 17–24 (and so mm. 25–32 as well) feel like alternating 3/4–6/8. The downbeats and rhythmic groupings in e.g. measures 9 and 17 clearly split the measure into three beats, like measures 10 and 18 split it into two. I think it's probably fine to leave it in 3/4 the whole way, since the triplets in mm. 12, 16, and 28 would be far less clean in 6/8, and there's some polyrhythm in measure 24 for instance (right hand in 3/4, left in 6/8), but I would at least slur eighths four and five of measure 10, etc., together.

Although I don't quite hear the 3/4 in m9/11/13/15, I can see where this is coming from and I think is probably the fairest analysis overall. However, I would still strongly advocate for explicitly writing m9-32 in alternating 3/4 and 6/8 because the even-numbered measures have such a strong sense of 6/8 phrasing that I think it would be misleading not to indicate it. Showing that every other measure is explicitly 6/8 would inform the pianist to replicate the same free-flowing alternation in their own phrasing. It's a deliberate metric structure rather than simply a case of syncopation/borrowed rhythms.

That said, what do people hear for m33-36? I hear a section transition happening between m32-33, but not between m36-37. m33-52 sounds like a continuous section to me, so I think it should be written in 6/8. (The rhythm of the melody in m36 is very indicative of 6/8, for example, with the emphasized Bb falling on the middle of the measure.)

[Khunjund]

Measures 33–36 really sound like a transition towards 37 to me, not as a continuous part (again, mm. 37–52 are a very symmetrical musical period, so I really hear them as a whole). Therefore, I would reserve an eventual time signature change for measure 37 proper.

[Latios212]

Thanks for all the comments I'm having a super busy week and will reply here when I can (probably this weekend).

[Latios212]

Let's go section by section:

m. 1-8
Sounds like we're all in agreement for 3/4 here.

m. 9-16, 25-32
As D3ath mentioned, the odd-numbered measures definitely feel like 3/4 to me in large part due to the rhythmic resemblance to the intro. I'm really not hearing a ton in the even-numbered measures that suggests that it must be 6/8 rather than rhythmic syncopation. In particular, the horn in m. 10/14 seems at most rhythmically ambiguous and I've always heard it as just fitting in with the 3/4 surrounding measures despite the harp, so I would prefer to keep it in all 3/4.

m. 17-24
Similar to the above section, I'm finding it difficult mentally to really hear this as alternating time signatures rather than a couple of displaced stressed beats. I think of it as analogous to m. 4 and 8 and the bass pattern in m. 18 and 20 is the same.

m. 33-36

Measures 33–36 really sound like a transition towards 37 to me, not as a continuous part (again, mm. 37–52 are a very symmetrical musical period, so I really hear them as a whole). Therefore, I would reserve an eventual time signature change for measure 37 proper.

I agree with this.

m. 37-52

m37: I hear the subdivisions the same way as you've written, but to me, m25-52 all sounds like a continuous time signature, so I would write this in 6/8 instead of 3/8.

• Measures 37–52 should be written in 6/8, since every phrase in the piece so far (except the transitional passage in mm. 33–36) has been an eight-measure period divided symmetrically into two phrases of 4 measures, and I don't see why this should be an exception considering it's essentially the same.
  

I wrote it like this because when listening to this section I hear it pretty differently from the rest - like a quick waltz, with each of the bass notes beginning a new phrase with the left hand. Each group of 3 (measure as I've written now) has a new chord, which is different from the rest of the sections. That's my take on it and why I'd like to keep it, but I'm willing to reconsider if people still disagree.

m. 53-56
Sounds like we're also all in agreement for 3/4 here.


(And for the notes in m. 37+, I'll get to those in a bit too ^^)

[mastersuperfan]

- In m10/14/26/30, I would also add a slur to the fourth eighth note (B) to reflect the phrasing of the horn.
- The lower note on m21 RH beat 3 is an E instead of a G in the original, although a G is probably fine for consistency if you prefer.
- m22 RH beat 2 should be flipped upward.
- Seconding what Zeila said about m22 and m24 LH:

Aside from that, I didn't really check over it but measures 22 and 24 stood out to me because the LH sounds like it goes G-D-G(high)-G(low)-D-G(high) in m22 and it seems like the LH should play two A's on beat 3 of m24

- I hear m24 beat 2.5 top note as a G instead of an A, but when I slow the audio down, I think that's just the harp...

I second Khunjund's comment that the the last page should be written as 6/8 instead of 3/8. Apart from what he said about about the phrases being eight-measure periods, I also think it just makes more sense to have a 1:1 measure correspondence between time signatures. I can kind of see why the original sounds like a waltz, but I think explicitly writing it out like in 3/8 takes it way beyond the style of the original. (Given that I hear most of the track in 6/8, I don't even hear any sort of transition or meter change between m25 and m37, so notating m37+ as 3/8 seems extra strange to me personally.)

Khunjund and Zeila already left comments on the notes on the last page, so I'll leave that for now. Apart from that and what I said, the rest sounds good!

[Latios212]

By the way, I'm pretty sure the left-hand chords in mm. 37 and 38 are G (I don't hear an F, at least not at that height), Bn both times, Db, and the chord in m. 40 is F-Ab-Bn. Also, since this section is mostly written in sharps and the left hand here doesn't fit into the melody's ethnic mode, I would be tempted to write it all in sharps (gives you a nice G#dim>A in mm. 40–41 too).

I think you're right about the F's. I've double checked it changes to Bb the second time though. Not too sure about the G# vs. Ab myself but I think it looks alright, so changed for now. Continuing the rest with the following comment...

The bassoon(?) part that actually comes on the quarter notes are the lowest three notes of measures 37-39 and then F-Bn-D in measure 40, while the F, Gb, E, and Ab come from the harp part in measures 37-40 respectively

Adjusted the first and third chords accordingly to include the C# instead of F. I also omitted some of the top notes here as they stick out a lot more on piano than they do in the original (and are a bit hard to play).

- In m10/14/26/30, I would also add a slur to the fourth eighth note (B) to reflect the phrasing of the horn.

Sure I can do that since I still have it in 3/4

- The lower note on m21 RH beat 3 is an E instead of a G in the original, although a G is probably fine for consistency if you prefer.

Oh, interesting. Yeah, I think I'll leave it as is.

- m22 RH beat 2 should be flipped upward.

That was deliberate to keep the mordent above the notehead (and as a bonus, it parallels m. 18 above so you can easily tell only beat 2.25 is different in the RH!)

measures 22 and 24 stood out to me because the LH sounds like it goes G-D-G(high)-G(low)-D-G(high) in m22 and it seems like the LH should play two A's on beat 3 of m24

Got that, except I think m. 22 ends on a low G instead of high G

- I hear m24 beat 2.5 top note as a G instead of an A, but when I slow the audio down, I think that's just the harp...

Maybe? I'm pretty sure this voice stays at an A.

And about the time signatures, I changed the section towards the end into 6/8 as you all suggested but I would like to keep the rest in 3/4.

Sorry for the wait, I've updated everything I mentioned above, hope I didn't miss anything.

[mastersuperfan]

Sure I can do that since I still have it in 3/4

Oh, I just meant a two-note slur since beat 3 is staccato.

A few last things:
- Courtesy natural on the D in m35 LH?
- Double barlines at the time signature changes?
- I would be tempted to use Ab instead of G# in m37 LH, but not in m40 LH. I don't really know about m38 LH, though. It's probably better to get another opinion here.
- I hear an additional F at the bottom of the last chord in m38 LH.
- The pedal playback doesn't work on my end. However, this could just be weird v26 things, and it probably doesn't matter anyway.

I think that's all I can find. Nice.

[Khunjund]

Unlike with key signatures, double bar lines are typically not used at time signature changes, unless it's a new section.

[mastersuperfan]

Unlike with key signatures, double bar lines are typically not used at time signature changes, unless it's a new section.

But it is a new section here, isn't it?

[Latios212]

About the double barlines - it's a different section, yeah, but I feel like if I put double barlines there I would want to put them at a bunch of other places as well since the tone changes every 4-8 measures. So I think I'll just go without any double barlines especially since the hypermeter helps to demarcate the sections anyway.

Oh, I just meant a two-note slur since beat 3 is staccato.

ah gotcha

- Courtesy natural on the D in m35 LH?

Sure

- I would be tempted to use Ab instead of G# in m37 LH, but not in m40 LH. I don't really know about m38 LH, though. It's probably better to get another opinion here.

I adjusted 37-38 a bit in response to this comment (note due to the timesig change the G#dim>A in this comment is referring to m. 38-39)

Also, since this section is mostly written in sharps and the left hand here doesn't fit into the melody's ethnic mode, I would be tempted to write it all in sharps (gives you a nice G#dim>A in mm. 40–41 too).

So I agree with G# in m. 38 for that reason, but looking again I think I do want to write m. 37 with Ab as a chromatic neighboring tone to the G. I've updated that.

- I hear an additional F at the bottom of the last chord in m38 LH.

I didn't think it was necessary since it just doubles the bass and everything else is triads here, but I can add it no problem

- The pedal playback doesn't work on my end. However, this could just be weird v26 things, and it probably doesn't matter anyway.

Think it works for me, so maybe it is a Finale thing. Agreed that it doesn't really matter.

New files up, thanks again!