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NinSheetMusic => Help! => Topic started by: Bubbles on January 22, 2013, 03:08:10 PM

Title: Rhythm Groupings
Post by: Bubbles on January 22, 2013, 03:08:10 PM
I know this has been asked countless times before, but even after reading everything I find I still have no idea how to work rhythm groupings. Can someone explain it shortly and simply (if thats possible) without using too much fancy musical vocabulary? From what I've gathered, I think its something like the stronger beats in a measure must be shown, for example is the piece is in 4/4 time you need to show the 1st and 3rd beats using ties?
Title: Re: Rhythm Groupings
Post by: JDMEK5 on January 22, 2013, 04:13:45 PM
http://www.ninsheetm.us/smf/index.php?topic=4845.msg168866#msg168866

If that's a bit over your head, let me know and I'll break it down for you. At least, what you need explained.

Quote from: Bubbles7689 on January 22, 2013, 03:08:10 PMFrom what I've gathered, I think its something like the stronger beats in a measure must be shown, for example is the piece is in 4/4 time you need to show the 1st and 3rd beats using ties?
Long answer short: that's right.
Title: Re: Rhythm Groupings
Post by: Bubbles on January 22, 2013, 04:23:21 PM
Ok, but if that is true, how come its acceptable to put a whole note in 4/4 time? Wouldn't it be better to put two tied half notes?
Title: Re: Rhythm Groupings
Post by: Bubbles on January 22, 2013, 04:27:46 PM
Wait, I think Im starting to understand it. Its sort of like a growing thing:

Strong beat: strong, medium and weak
Medium beat: medium and weak
Weak beat: weak

and its different for all different time signatures, based on what its rhythm is?

So its ok for me to be especially confused when it comes to sixteenth notes :P So technically you could put two dotted sixteenth notes nex to each other as long as they are between or both on a certain beat? (Now I know why this is hard to understand)
Title: Re: Rhythm Groupings
Post by: SlowPokemon on January 22, 2013, 06:38:06 PM
Simple solution: make it sound right, then ask for help with proper notation. After someone fixes up the sheet (or says it's fine) you can compare.

Honestly, it's not something you need to be uptight about having perfect, as it holds entirely aesthetic implications.
Title: Re: Rhythm Groupings
Post by: Bubbles on January 22, 2013, 06:42:59 PM
But I feel bad because normally whenever I submit a sheet the review is
-slight chord change in measure x
-minor formatting detail
-rhythmgroupingsrhythmgroupingsrhythmgroupingsrhythmgroupings
Title: Re: Rhythm Groupings
Post by: SlowPokemon on January 22, 2013, 06:43:52 PM
Quote from: SlowPokemon on January 22, 2013, 06:38:06 PMSimple solution: make it sound right, then ask for help with proper notation. After someone fixes up the sheet (or says it's fine) you can compare.
Title: Re: Rhythm Groupings
Post by: Olimar12345 on January 22, 2013, 06:49:42 PM
Quote from: SlowPokemon on January 22, 2013, 06:38:06 PMSimple solution: make it sound right, then ask for help with proper notation. After someone fixes up the sheet (or says it's fine) you can compare.

Honestly, it's not something you need to be uptight about having perfect, as it holds entirely aesthetic implications.

This is not the way to go about this.
Title: Re: Rhythm Groupings
Post by: SlowPokemon on January 22, 2013, 06:51:15 PM
It's not that big of a deal unless it's totally awkward and unreadable. Maybe I have just played/read enough music to pick up on it, but I have never given rhythm groupings a second thought and have never been told that they're inadequate.
Title: Re: Rhythm Groupings
Post by: Shadoninja on January 22, 2013, 06:52:27 PM
Do music theory for a Bubbles and she will have one proper sheet.
Teach music theory to a Bubbles and she will have thousands of proper sheets.
Title: Re: Rhythm Groupings
Post by: Olimar12345 on January 22, 2013, 06:55:20 PM
One of these days we need to have a theory lecture in tinychat or something...
Title: Re: Rhythm Groupings
Post by: SlowPokemon on January 22, 2013, 07:02:53 PM
You can't explain music theory in tinychat.
Title: Re: Rhythm Groupings
Post by: Shadoninja on January 22, 2013, 07:04:49 PM
Quote from: Olimar12345 on January 22, 2013, 06:55:20 PMOne of these days we need to have a theory lecture in tinychat or something...
http://tinychat.com/shadoninja
password: theoryisfun
Title: Re: Rhythm Groupings
Post by: Olimar12345 on January 22, 2013, 07:07:14 PM
Quote from: SlowPokemon on January 22, 2013, 07:02:53 PMYou can't explain music theory in tinychat.
Tomorrow night good fer you?
Title: Re: Rhythm Groupings
Post by: Bubbles on January 22, 2013, 07:09:20 PM
I dont know if I can :< But here:
(https://www.ninsheetmusic.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FNko1nEI.png&hash=7a159350c6bc803c1d1826d78501ef3b47ce03de)

Whats wrong with the rhythm groupings here? I have a beat on the strong AND weak ones with no ties or anything (I drew cute little lines to show the beats :P)
Title: Re: Rhythm Groupings
Post by: Olimar12345 on January 22, 2013, 07:11:45 PM
That looks fine to me.
Title: Re: Rhythm Groupings
Post by: Bubbles on January 22, 2013, 07:17:31 PM
Whoops :P wrong one

(https://www.ninsheetmusic.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FDwY8RpS.png&hash=dd82fea04f94eeb50d17122b6d1713cfca5d6436)
So in this one, whats wrong?
Title: Re: Rhythm Groupings
Post by: Shadoninja on January 22, 2013, 07:18:22 PM
Quote from: Bubbles7689 on January 22, 2013, 07:17:31 PMWhoops :P wrong one

(https://www.ninsheetmusic.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FDwY8RpS.png&hash=dd82fea04f94eeb50d17122b6d1713cfca5d6436)
So in this one, whats wrong?
It's very difficult to tell where the beats are. That makes it hard to count.
Title: Re: Rhythm Groupings
Post by: spitllama on January 22, 2013, 07:19:41 PM
I think we're supposed to assume that the red lines are the beats and that it's in 4/4 time.
Title: Re: Rhythm Groupings
Post by: Olimar12345 on January 22, 2013, 07:20:32 PM
Quote from: spitllama on January 22, 2013, 07:19:41 PMI think we're supposed to assume that the red lines are the beats and that it's in 4/4 time.
Yes

@Bubbles: Don't forget to treat the rests the same way you would the notes.
Title: Re: Rhythm Groupings
Post by: Bubbles on January 22, 2013, 07:20:52 PM
So how would I change it to be more readable? Change the half beat rest to two eighths and a quarter rest?

Quote from: spitllama on January 22, 2013, 07:19:41 PMI think we're supposed to assume that the red lines are the beats and that it's in 4/4 time.
Bear with me, this is difficult as it is :P
Title: Re: Rhythm Groupings
Post by: Olimar12345 on January 22, 2013, 07:22:19 PM
8th note - 8th rest - quarter rest - quarter rest - 8th rest - 16th rest - 16th note
Title: Re: Rhythm Groupings
Post by: SlowPokemon on January 22, 2013, 07:24:17 PM
Generally speaking, a half rest should only appear on the first or third beats of a measure in 4/4 time.
Title: Re: Rhythm Groupings
Post by: Bubbles on January 22, 2013, 07:27:53 PM
Quote from: Bespinben on September 15, 2012, 08:16:24 PM(https://www.ninsheetmusic.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1111.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fh475%2FBespinben%2Fa960958eb1016698280474ccdbc69f47.jpg&hash=2d671c5181739d70dc0c0fe80f01fd4dbb9e18ec)
He tried explaining it to me before, and I though I got it but I didnt XD Now its time to use this

I promise that my next sheet I submit (if I arrange it from now onwards) will have as correct rhythm groupings as I can get :D

But do you guys take classes on this stuff or is it just ocmmon knowledge?
Title: Re: Rhythm Groupings
Post by: SlowPokemon on January 22, 2013, 07:29:39 PM
Both--taking a class is definitely the best way to learn, but if you compose a lot of music, much of it is second nature.
Title: Re: Rhythm Groupings
Post by: Olimar12345 on January 22, 2013, 07:30:05 PM
We took classes on this stuff, making it common knowledge.
Title: Re: Rhythm Groupings
Post by: Shadoninja on January 22, 2013, 07:30:43 PM
Quote from: Bubbles7689 on January 22, 2013, 07:27:53 PMHe tried explaining it to me before, and I though I got it but I didnt XD Now its time to use this

I promise that my next sheet I submit (if I arrange it from now onwards) will have as correct rhythm groupings as I can get :D

But do you guys take classes on this stuff or is it just ocmmon knowledge?
I haven't taken much classes on this kind of stuff, I just go by what makes the most sense to me. 
Title: Re: Rhythm Groupings
Post by: JDMEK5 on January 22, 2013, 07:35:53 PM
Quote from: Olimar12345 on January 22, 2013, 06:55:20 PMOne of these days we need to have a theory lecture in tinychat or something...
That's the same thought process that started that Music Theory Q/A topic I've got.
I'm going to get that going again next chance I get. Next topic will be on key signatures (similar to that on time signatures) and that will be followed by a little column explaining when to use double accidentals.
Title: Re: Rhythm Groupings
Post by: spitllama on January 22, 2013, 07:41:02 PM
Quote from: Bubbles7689 on January 22, 2013, 07:20:52 PMBear with me, this is difficult as it is :P

Oh haha that wasn't meant to be a criticism. Sorry.

And I've learned about it from Deku and Olimar hounding on me about it all the time :P I'd be totally willing to check your next sheet if you'd like Bubbles!
Title: Re: Rhythm Groupings
Post by: JDMEK5 on January 22, 2013, 07:51:20 PM
In case it isn't already blatantly obvious, I'm here to help too. ;)
Title: Re: Rhythm Groupings
Post by: FireArrow on January 22, 2013, 08:12:43 PM
Woah, this thread was immensely helpful.
Title: Re: Rhythm Groupings
Post by: Bubbles on January 22, 2013, 08:15:14 PM
I try 8) lol i didnt do anything
Title: Re: Rhythm Groupings
Post by: JDMEK5 on January 22, 2013, 08:16:16 PM
I'm really thinking that it'd be nice if my theory topic could get stickied once I add a few more subjects.
These theory questions keep popping up over and over again.
Title: Re: Rhythm Groupings
Post by: Ricky on January 23, 2013, 08:32:22 AM
Here's what you should watch: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xxk-D7fbioo

Also if you want to learn plenty of basic music theory you should watch the whole series (don't forget to do the homeworks). Go here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6gHEIF0rT2w&list=SPB585CE43B02669C3&index=1).