NinSheetMusic Forums

NinSheetMusic => Help! => Topic started by: Bubbles on August 25, 2012, 09:24:34 PM

Title: Ending songs
Post by: Bubbles on August 25, 2012, 09:24:34 PM
Alot of the time when I arrange a song that ends in a loop (pretty much every Pokemon song), the timing doesnt work at the end. Either the measure is half a beat too short or a few beats too long. How would I fix this? I only have notepad, so nothing that needs the ful version of Finale
Title: Re: Ending songs
Post by: Bespinben on August 25, 2012, 09:25:38 PM
Have you tried experimenting with 1st and 2nd endings?
Title: Re: Ending songs
Post by: Bubbles on August 25, 2012, 09:31:03 PM
Even though the ending doesnt change? Or do you mean create an ending
Title: Re: Ending songs
Post by: spitllama on August 25, 2012, 09:32:18 PM
So you're saying you'll be going in 4/4 time and the last measure before the loop will have an extra beat or something? I've never seen anyone experience that before. Could you post an example?
Title: Re: Ending songs
Post by: Bubbles on August 25, 2012, 09:35:47 PM
Never seen it? Almost all of my songs have it -.-

Look at this one
https://dl.dropbox.com/u/96664701/Es%20Cade%20Theme.mus
Title: Re: Ending songs
Post by: spitllama on August 25, 2012, 09:41:15 PM
K I was counting along with that video and I ended correctly. When the song looped I was on beat 1 again. Maybe a measure somewhere screwed it up? I'll look for it.
Title: Re: Ending songs
Post by: Bubbles on August 25, 2012, 09:42:33 PM
In the last measure, when I count it it seems to be 2 beats too long
Title: Re: Ending songs
Post by: Bespinben on August 25, 2012, 09:55:24 PM
I see the problem. You are using the wrong time signature. While you are on the right track with 4/4, there are 3 subdivisions per beat as opposed to two. You're going to have to re-write, from scratch, the entire arrangement in 12/8.
Title: Re: Ending songs
Post by: Shadoninja on August 25, 2012, 09:56:59 PM
Quote from: Bespinben on August 25, 2012, 09:55:24 PMI see the problem. You are using the wrong time signature. While you are on the right track with 4/4, there are 3 subdivisions per beat as opposed to two. You're going to have to re-write, from scratch, the entire arrangement in 12/8.
I'll help with that; It'll only take a few moments.
Title: Re: Ending songs
Post by: spitllama on August 25, 2012, 10:07:43 PM
Is that really necessary? I was just splitting things like this in 4/4 and it seemed to working fine:

(https://www.ninsheetmusic.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1192.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Faa326%2Fspitllama1%2FBubbles.png&hash=0645ea71d675f600560f8237eedf1bf94c5ca840)
Title: Re: Ending songs
Post by: MaestroUGC on August 25, 2012, 10:13:27 PM
You could do what I do, and just write endings twice as long as the original piece.
Title: Re: Ending songs
Post by: Bespinben on August 25, 2012, 10:20:59 PM
Quote from: MaestroUGC on August 25, 2012, 10:13:27 PMYou could do what I do, and just write endings twice as long as the original piece.

Rofl  ;D

Quote from: spitllama on August 25, 2012, 10:07:43 PMIs that really necessary? I was just splitting things like this in 4/4 and it seemed to working fine:
*picture*

Err... no, the original is definitely in compound meter. Just count 1-and-a, 2-and-a, etc. inside each beat and you'll see it.
Title: Re: Ending songs
Post by: Bubbles on August 25, 2012, 10:28:58 PM
Yay... So how do you change time signature in finale notepad? And is there anything else that needs fixing while I'm at it?


Title: Re: Ending songs
Post by: Bespinben on August 25, 2012, 10:52:06 PM
Quote from: Bubbles7689 on August 25, 2012, 10:28:58 PMYay... So how do you change time signature in finale notepad? And is there anything else that needs fixing while I'm at it?

After the document is created, you cannot change the time signature in Notepad, but that doesn't matter anyway since you're switching to 12/8. With that change of time signature, you'd have to rewrite from scratch in ANY version of Finale, because you have to multiply all your rhythms by a factor of 1.5.

Oh, and I have a tip for you Bubbles, and pretty much all you're arrangements could use it. Your layers overlap alot. Try pressing "L" while a note is highlighted, and see what happens.
Title: Re: Ending songs
Post by: Bubbles on August 25, 2012, 11:00:38 PM
Oh, ok. So you change the time signature in the beginning? And you said that all the rhythms get multiplied by 1.5.... Does that mean that a quarter note would become a dotted quarter note?
Title: Re: Ending songs
Post by: Shadoninja on August 25, 2012, 11:02:17 PM
Quote from: Bespinben on August 25, 2012, 10:52:06 PMAfter the document is created, you cannot change the time signature in Notepad, but that doesn't matter anyway since you're switching to 12/8. With that change of time signature, you'd have to rewrite from scratch in ANY version of Finale, because you have to multiply all your rhythms by a factor of 1.5.
Or you could use something like FLStudio to stretch and realign the midi data like I have:
https://dl.dropbox.com/u/36661985/Pokemon%20Colosseum%20-%20Es%20Cade%27s%20Theme.mus
Title: Re: Ending songs
Post by: Bubbles on August 25, 2012, 11:05:23 PM
AHHH Thanks so much :D That saved me alot of time
Title: Re: Ending songs
Post by: Bubbles on August 25, 2012, 11:08:11 PM
So I don't end up doing this again, how can I tell the time signature of a song before I write out the entire thing?
Title: Re: Ending songs
Post by: Bespinben on August 25, 2012, 11:09:06 PM
Quote from: Bubbles7689 on August 25, 2012, 11:00:38 PMOh, ok. So you change the time signature in the beginning? And you said that all the rhythms get multiplied by 1.5.... Does that mean that a quarter note would become a dotted quarter note?

Quote from: Bubbles7689 on August 25, 2012, 11:08:11 PMSo I don't end up doing this again, how can I tell the time signature of a song before I write out the entire thing?

Research "compound time signature". It'll help you alot.

Quarter notes would become dotted quarter notes, yes, but it is because the beat no longer is 1 quarter note, rather the beat is changed to 1 dotted quarter note. Think math - 12/8 is equal to 4 time 3/8. In music, 3/8 means 3 eighth notes, but 3 eighth notes form a dotted quarter. Therefore, 12/8 is 4 dotted quarter notes, each dotted quarter note consisting of 3 eighths, or subdivisions, thereby eliminating triplets that would be in the music if it were written in 4/4.
Title: Re: Ending songs
Post by: Shadoninja on August 25, 2012, 11:25:11 PM
Quote from: Bubbles7689 on August 25, 2012, 11:08:11 PMSo I don't end up doing this again, how can I tell the time signature of a song before I write out the entire thing?
First, listen to the beat. That will help with figuring out how many beats are in a measure. The bass is usually easiest for identifying the beats.
If there are a lot of triplets and if the piece sounds "swung" but doesn't sound jazzy, it's most likely in some kind of /8 time. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NoWkiOGGH94
If the piece sounds "swung" and sounds jazzy, it's most likely in /4 time with swing eighths. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hLmGVlAVUzM


Title: Re: Ending songs
Post by: Bubbles on August 25, 2012, 11:27:08 PM
Ok, I think I get post of it, or at least enough to blame myself if I mess up again

I forgot how much I loved that Pokemon song  :D
Title: Re: Ending songs
Post by: Winter on August 25, 2012, 11:51:04 PM
I think jazzy is just a fancy term for 12/8 :P

Swing works too, but only for more lenience on the timing of the swing beat, I suppose.
Title: Re: Ending songs
Post by: Bubbles on August 25, 2012, 11:52:15 PM
More of a simpler term for people who don't understand music but have ears.
Title: Re: Ending songs
Post by: Shadoninja on August 25, 2012, 11:53:35 PM
Quote from: Winter on August 25, 2012, 11:51:04 PMI think jazzy is just a fancy term for 12/8 :P

Swing works too, but only for more lenience on the timing of the swing beat, I suppose.
Jazzy is a very abstract term that's hard to really describe.
Title: Re: Ending songs
Post by: JDMEK5 on August 26, 2012, 11:49:17 AM
I saw this written on the sidewalk when I went to music camp.

Quote"If you need someone to explain what jazz is, you'll never know.

(Or, something along those lines)
Title: Re: Ending songs
Post by: FSM-Reapr on August 26, 2012, 12:00:17 PM
"If you need someone to explain what is jazz, you will never know."

Old saying.
Title: Re: Ending songs
Post by: Bubbles on August 26, 2012, 05:30:04 PM
Ok, then what about this song? I picked it because it seemed far from swinging notes or any jazzy tune, but the ending is still half a beat too long  :-\

https://dl.dropbox.com/u/96664701/Ending%20A%20%28Pokemon%20Colosseum%29.mus

Oops. Forgot the actual song
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=btjL1Gr0U8U
Title: Re: Ending songs
Post by: Bespinben on August 26, 2012, 07:06:24 PM
Quote from: Bubbles7689 on August 26, 2012, 05:30:04 PMOk, then what about this song? I picked it because it seemed far from swinging notes or any jazzy tune, but the ending is still half a beat too long  :-\

The song is in 3/4, not 4/4. The guitar part plays consecutive eighth notes.
Title: Re: Ending songs
Post by: Bubbles on August 26, 2012, 07:10:36 PM
Ugh I knew it was something like that. I can tell the difference between simple and complex time signatures, but what about the individual time signatures themselves?
Title: Re: Ending songs
Post by: Uraziel on August 26, 2012, 07:21:27 PM
couldnt you also put that in 6/8?
Title: Re: Ending songs
Post by: Bespinben on August 26, 2012, 07:29:15 PM
Quote from: Bubbles7689 on August 26, 2012, 07:10:36 PMI can tell the difference between simple and complex time signatures, but what about the individual time signatures themselves?

I don't think I'm understanding your question. I'll try to guess though.

Often times, certain time signatures characterize certain genres of music. In this case, the Ending theme you linked has a kind of "ballad-like" feel to it, from which you might then guess that the time signature is 3/4. In any case though, just try testing various simple meters when listening to a song. If one just doesn't feel right, try another one.

Quote from: Uraziel on August 26, 2012, 07:21:27 PMcouldnt you also put that in 6/8?

6/8 signifies two compound beats per measure, which does not follow the rhythmic stresses heard in the song. The Ending theme is very clearly 3/4. Just listen to the guitar part - you can tell it sounds like 1-&, 2-&, 3-& as opposed to 1-&-a, 2-&-a.
Title: Re: Ending songs
Post by: Bubbles on August 26, 2012, 07:31:58 PM
I meant that how could you tell the difference between 4/4 and 3/4. But what do you mean by testing different meters?
Title: Re: Ending songs
Post by: Bespinben on August 26, 2012, 07:45:06 PM
Quote from: Bubbles7689 on August 26, 2012, 07:31:58 PMI meant that how could you tell the difference between 4/4 and 3/4. But what do you mean by testing different meters?

Meter is just another word that refers to time signature. For example, if I were to say, "The 'Temple of Time' theme from the Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time lacks a clear meter," that would mean the song doesn't have a discernable time signature, which is true, especially considering the song is styled after Gregorian plainchant.

So, when I say "test different meters," I'm saying to try counting the song using different time signatures. Try "1, 2, 3, 4" (4/4 time), and if that pattern doesn't fit, try counting "1, 2, 3" (3/4 time).
Title: Re: Ending songs
Post by: Bubbles on August 26, 2012, 07:47:00 PM
Ohhh. You know, listening to the song and finding out the time signature BEFORE I write the whole piece out and find that im wrong makes a lot more sense :D
Title: Re: Ending songs
Post by: Uraziel on August 26, 2012, 07:51:12 PM
Yeah, ive done that many times when im halfway through a piece and then realise its in 3/4... also done that in the sightreading for an audition :(
Title: Re: Ending songs
Post by: Olimar12345 on August 31, 2012, 12:36:49 PM
Quote from: Uraziel on August 26, 2012, 07:51:12 PMYeah, ive done that many times when im halfway through a piece and then realise its in 3/4... also done that in the sightreading for an audition :(

...you were playing a piece, not knowing the time? :1
Title: Re: Ending songs
Post by: Uraziel on August 24, 2013, 11:00:48 AM
i was really really nervous so i just didnt notice it lol, it sounded fine to everyone else as i got in but i just didnt know what i was doing
Title: Re: Ending songs
Post by: SlowPokemon on August 24, 2013, 11:07:19 AM
Did you just
Title: Re: Ending songs
Post by: Uraziel on August 24, 2013, 12:07:47 PM
just... sorry hehe, I promise I'm a pretty good violist! i just wasn't thinking... .-.
Title: Re: Ending songs
Post by: SlowPokemon on August 24, 2013, 12:32:37 PM
that's not what I was referring to.

You just replied to a comment that's about a year old xD
Title: Re: Ending songs
Post by: Olimar12345 on August 24, 2013, 01:18:12 PM
I have been waiting almost a year to hear back from you. Thank you, so very much.
Title: Re: Ending songs
Post by: BlackDragonSlayer on August 24, 2013, 01:27:36 PM
Quote from: Olimar12345 on August 24, 2013, 01:18:12 PMI have been waiting almost a year to hear back from you. Thank you, so very much.
The conversation shall finally reach a definitive conclusion!!
Title: Re: Ending songs
Post by: Uraziel on August 24, 2013, 01:27:59 PM
just... sigh... lol i haven't been available is all i can say about that haha