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It's once again time for host sign-ups!!! As before, 6-10 player games are ideal, with larger games having more flexibility for downsizing if absolutely necessary. Bonus points if your game is spooky season themed.

Hosts:
1. BlackDragonSlayer
2. ThatHiddenCharacter
3. davy
4. TheZeldaPianist275
...

Thoughts? Should I change one of the Townsfolk to a second seer that's vulnerable to conversion and have both seers be told they're the vulnerable seer? Also, it is a deliberate choice that only the Skeleton Lord knows the identity of all the other Skeletons (as a handicap to the Skeleton team, given the nature of conversion games); should I change it so that all Skeletons are informed of the others' identities every time a new Skeleton is converted?

TWG: There's a Skeleton Inside You Right Now

FOR SEVEN LONG YEARS, THE SKELETON WAR HAS RAGED ON. WE APPROACH A CRITICAL MOMENT, WHEN THE BALANCE OF FATE HANGS HEAVY. THE SKELETON ARMY HAS BEEN DEVASTATED BY THE FORCES OF GOOD, BUT THE SKELETON LORD REMAINS STANDING.

Skeletons:
1. Skeleton Lord: Every night, as long as there isn't currently a living Skeleton, the Skeleton Lord may pick a player; that player is converted into a Skeleton, who is allied with the skeletons. It is publicly announced when a new Skeleton has risen, and the player who is converted is informed of their new status privately. At any point in the game, the Skeleton Lord may permanently forfeit their ability to convert new skeletons in exchange for being seered as Green for the rest of the game. In addition, once per game, the Skeleton Lord may pick a player at night; their vote counts as 0 for the next day phase.

If there is only one member of the Skeleton team remaining and no more Skeleton conversion is possible, then the remaining Skeleton gains a wolfing which functions as normal.

Not Skeletons:
2. Slime Wizard: Every night, the Slime Wizard may pick a player; at the end of the night, the Slime Wizard is told that player's color as of the end of the phase (after conversion). The Slime Wizard is immune to the Skeleton Lord's conversion, as the Slime Wizard does not possess a skeleton.
3. Brave Knight: If the Brave Knight is converted to a Skeleton, their seering color remains Green. Is told they're a normal Townsfolk.
4. Townsfolk
5. Townsfolk
6. Townsfolk
7. Townsfolk Who Owns a Mill: Is told they're a normal Townsfolk.

Skeletons win when # of Skeletons = # of Not Skeletons. Not Skeletons win when all Skeletons have been eliminated.

Host Clarifications:
(any mechanics clarifications will be added here if necessary. Feel free to ask questions!)
- PMs are off for the game.
- No lynch is not an option. Instas work as normal.
- Night start with the first night phase being 48 hours.
- If a player with a night actions does not submit their night action, no night action goes through.
- Color cardflips are on.

"What could be scarier than alcoholism?" - TheZeldaPianist275, 2023

TWG: Drunk With Power

DMs are not allowed in this game. No lynch is a voting option. Since wolves do not know each other, wolfings are determined by a vote. A tie is solved with a randomizer, just like with lynch ties. No votes results in a random killing (with the wolves included in the pool, make sure to vote!). This game does not have cardflips.

Roles:

1. Big Alcohol Rep: Once per night can DM the host a player's name. If the player is an Alcoholic, they become a Severe Alcoholic. The player becomes an Alcoholic if they are a Designated Driver.
2-?. Drunk Werewolf: Vanilla werewolf, but drunk. Drunk Wolves (and the BAR) do not know who each other are.
3. Bar Brawler: Once during a day phase can challenge another player. Both the player and the Bar Brawler will die and no lynch will happen during that phase.
4. Bartender: Once per night, can DM a player's name to the host, cutting that player off. In the morning, the player becomes a Designated Driver if they are an Alcoholic. The player becomes an Alcoholic if they are a Severe Alcoholic.
5. Designated Driver: Is sober. Their vote counts as two votes. Is told they are an Alcoholic.
6. Severe Alcoholic: Is so drunk that their vote doesn't count. Is told they are an Alcoholic.
7-?. Alcoholic: Vanilla role, except more drunk.

Host Clarifications:
If both the BAR and Bartender target the same player, the actions are negated.
All "vanilla" human roles are told they are an Alcoholic, and are not made aware of when their status changes.
BAR is included in the wolfing vote.
Wolves win when all humans are dead.

Fun fact:
One of the original ideas for this game stemmed from the inclusion of a drunk seer. The idea didn't pan out...

Quote from: ThatHiddenCharacter on September 29, 2023, 04:24:45 PMWhat? Just pretend everyone's wearing costumes.

TWG: A Punderful Zoo

lololololol

Some questions!

1. If the Scapegoat is roleblocked by the Direwolf, does that negate their special, uh... ability?
2. Are the wolves informed if/when the Scapegoat switches sides?
3. Similarly to question 1, how does the role block interact with Monkey See, Monkey Do? Does it block their ability to gain powers (so they wouldn't gain the roleblock power, or any other powers used on it that night), or does it only block the power they use that night?
4. Is the Baby Panda told they're the Zookeeper, or do they know they're the Baby Panda?

Right now the game seems a bit town-sided with three specials that all have the potential to claim (including the Scapegoat simply revealing they're the Scapegoat, without openly revealing the Direwolf's identity, right off the bat). If all players with a role claim, that only leaves 4 possibilities for lynch targets (and if there's a double claim then it becomes a 50/50 of hitting a wolf). I feel like there needs to be some sort of insurance against the possibility of a mass claim.

THC what happened to alcoholism game

the alcoholics turned into animals and the bartender is now a zookeeper

Quote from: TheZeldaPianist275 on September 29, 2023, 04:58:54 PMTHC what happened to alcoholism game

The sign-ups are spoopy time. I'll bring it back for the next one.

I'll respond to BDS' post shortly.

Quote from: BlackDragonSlayer on September 29, 2023, 04:47:18 PM1. If the Scapegoat is roleblocked by the Direwolf, does that negate their special, uh... ability?
2. Are the wolves informed if/when the Scapegoat switches sides?
3. Similarly to question 1, how does the role block interact with Monkey See, Monkey Do? Does it block their ability to gain powers (so they wouldn't gain the roleblock power, or any other powers used on it that night), or does it only block the power they use that night?
4. Is the Baby Panda told they're the Zookeeper, or do they know they're the Baby Panda?

1. Roleblocking only affects active abilities. The scapegoat's "ability" is passive.
2. No, the wolves do not find out who the Scapegoat is or that they switched, and the Scapegoat doesn't find out who the wolves are. (Thoughts on that? I could be swayed.)
3. It only blocks the power they use that night. But, as with the way the role works, they also gain the ability to roleblock.
4. Baby Panda knows they are Baby Panda. (It's like a delayed Known Human.)

Quote from: BlackDragonSlayer on September 29, 2023, 04:47:18 PMRight now the game seems a bit town-sided with three specials that all have the potential to claim (including the Scapegoat simply revealing they're the Scapegoat, without openly revealing the Direwolf's identity, right off the bat). If all players with a role claim, that only leaves 4 possibilities for lynch targets (and if there's a double claim then it becomes a 50/50 of hitting a wolf). I feel like there needs to be some sort of insurance against the possibility of a mass claim.

Not sure how to go about that. Any suggestions?

Quote from: ThatHiddenCharacter on September 29, 2023, 06:13:06 PM1. Roleblocking only affects active abilities. The scapegoat's "ability" is passive.

Makes sense. I figured about as much, cause otherwise that would lead to a lot of potentially lolsy situations :P

Quote2. No, the wolves do not find out who the Scapegoat is or that they switched, and the Scapegoat doesn't find out who the wolves are. (Thoughts on that? I could be swayed.)

I think it might be a good idea if the wolves knew when the Scapegoat switched, and the wolves can go ahead and invite them into the fold on their own from there if they so choose.

Quote3. It only blocks the power they use that night. But, as with the way the role works, they also gain the ability to roleblock.

Makes sense, but that adds two more questions:
1. Can the night kill be roleblocked, or is considered a passive ability?
2. If one roleblocker blocks another roleblocker, is the roleblocking blocked? Or are roleblockers immune to roleblocking?

Quote4. Baby Panda knows they are Baby Panda. (It's like a delayed Known Human.)

I feel like that just adds another potential role to claim right out of the gate. Five people can claim right away, meaning that 2/3 lynches would be viable if those remaining 3 claimed normal human, or 1/2 if one wolf tried to impersonate another special, plus another 1/2 out of the 2 normal human claimers.

QuoteNot sure how to go about that. Any suggestions?

In larger games, my way around mass claiming potential is to give the wolves a single-use Sniper kill (basically instant, unblockable kill at any point in the game), but given the small size of the game I don't think that would be a good idea—but the idea can be adapted similarly:
1. At any point in the game the wolves can elect to use an instant sniper kill at the cost of skipping their next night kill.
2. Wolves get a single attempt at matching a player up with their role; if they're correct, that player instantly dies. If they're incorrect, they can't use that ability again at any point in the game. The only downside is that you might have to switch to color cardflips instead of full role because it might give wolves too much advantage in the late game, and especially so after the Baby Panda is revealed (or just disable the ability from Day 2 onward so the wolves don't get a free instakill).

Alternatively, instead of all the sniper-related nonsense (:P), you could just have the Baby Panda be told they're a normal human and turn one of the specials into another Zookeeper. Alternatively, instead of getting rid of one of the specials, you could turn the Scapegoat into a Traitor (http://llftwg.pbworks.com/w/page/25497045/Traitor) instead because they'd be likely to claim normal human (which gives more cover for the wolves), and gives another player fighting for the wolves right out of the gate.

Quote from: ThatHiddenCharacter on September 29, 2023, 06:09:01 PMThe sign-ups are spoopy time.

What could be scarier than alcoholism

Quote from: TheZeldaPianist275 on September 29, 2023, 08:45:34 PMWhat could be scarier than alcoholism

me rolling wolf  :o

I'm also in for hosting. I have a game in mind that is almost ready, just need to run some numbers to decide on the number of players, day/night start and some other subtle things like that. I'll hopefully be able to post it this evening, otherwise tomorrow morning (so like 24 hours from now).

Quote from: BlackDragonSlayer on September 29, 2023, 06:48:14 PM1. Can the night kill be roleblocked, or is considered a passive ability?
2. If one roleblocker blocks another roleblocker, is the roleblocking blocked? Or are roleblockers immune to roleblocking?

1. The night kill can be roleblocked, but only if the normal wolf is targeted. That way the normal wolf is the one that technically has the ability since the direwolf can roleblock. And it doesn't make the roleblock too OP.
2. Roleblocking can be roleblocked.

As for your point on the baby panda, I think you're right. It makes more sense to be unknown to the player at first. And I think I will change the Scapegoat to a traitor, but neither they nor the wolves know each other. What would you think about the Scapegoat being worth two votes, but they can learn the identities of the wolves to be able to join them at the cost of losing the extra vote power?

Quote from: ThatHiddenCharacter on September 30, 2023, 04:04:46 AM1. The night kill can be roleblocked, but only if the normal wolf is targeted. That way the normal wolf is the one that technically has the ability since the direwolf can roleblock. And it doesn't make the roleblock too OP.

But the nightkill is still a faction kill and doesn't go away when the normal wolf dies? I think roleblocking the nightkill is such a niche scenario that the possibility of roleblocking it is ok, but it helps to anticipate such scenarios.

Quote2. Roleblocking can be roleblocked.

Makes sense.

QuoteAs for your point on the baby panda, I think you're right. It makes more sense to be unknown to the player at first. And I think I will change the Scapegoat to a traitor, but neither they nor the wolves know each other. What would you think about the Scapegoat being worth two votes, but they can learn the identities of the wolves to be able to join them at the cost of losing the extra vote power?

Looking over the game again, with a traitor, the humans basically only get one shot at hitting a wolf before wolves can get a higher number of votes. I think neither party knowing each other is a good call, but I would add the addition that if the Scapegoat reveals they're a Traitor to anyone, their vote counts as 0 for the rest of the game (to try and avoid them knowingly coordinating with the wolves). Giving them 2 votes is a bit risky and I think has the potential to swing the pendulum the other way.

THC I like the changes you guys are suggesting but I still think that mass claiming is probably going to swing the balance in the humans' favor in a game-breaking way. Can you modify any of the animals' powers to more passive effects and just have them told they're a random animal?

Oooo its spoopy tiem

TWG: President Adam Benford will Make America Great Again


"The opposition", most certainly not a counter-bioterrorism organisation

1. Generic "Opposition Leader", most certainly not Chris Redfield
2. Generic "Opposition Leader", most certainly not Jill Valentine

"The opposition is deploying underhand tactics. Every night they are stalking the populace in an attempt to obtain classified Umbrella Corporation information (seering), and they have even taken up arms against innocent citizens under the cover of night (wolfing)"

True Patriots, most certainly not a mindless mob

3. Umbrella Corporation intelligence officer
4. Umbrella Corporation intelligence officer
5. Umbrella Corporation intelligence officer

"Umbrella's intelligence office, although most certainly not affiliated with our campaign team, is helping keeping the streets safe by monitoring the vigilante opposition members. At the end of a hard day of work, they each receive a rapport telling them how many opposition leaders are still out and about (psychic)"

6. True Patriot, most certainly hasn't been brainwashed
7. True Patriot, most certainly hasn't been brainwashed
8. True Patriot, most certainly hasn't been brainwashed
9. Umbrella Corporation Intern - Does not know they are interning for Umbrella.

"Citizens, make sure to go to the polls every night (due to technical difficulties, we are currently unable to keep the polling stations open during the day) to elect president Adam Benford (until he has been elected, then you can stop voting). Elections are only valid if at least half of the population goes to vote, so don't stay home. Be sure to vote annonymously. Because every living president in recent history has been a failure, only dead members of the populace are eligible to be elected president Adam Benford. Since president Adam Benford is revitalized (revived) by medicine from Umbrella corporation, if he happens onto an assassination attempt or an unfortunate accident, he will be able to spit in the face of death (for twelve more hours at least). The state he'll be in during that time will disable him from any nighttime activity or from using social media to cancel (lynch) people, but he'll still be able to adress you all through his spokesperson"

"Opposition members have turned to vigilantism. This cannot stand! Citizens, go out each day and publicly name and shame these wrongdoers. Whichever person gets given a bad name by the largest percentage of the population will be canceled. Of course, once a person is canceled, nothing can prevent them ending up in an unfortunate accident (lynching)"

"The opposition can freely partake both in the election and in canceling. We are a democracy, after all."

Without all thematics

Wolves

1. Wolf
2. Wolf

The wolves have a shared seer power.

Humans

3. Psychic - Is told the number of remaining wolves at the end of the day phase.
4. Psychic - Is told the number of remaining wolves at the end of the day phase.
5. Psychic - Is told the number of remaining wolves at the end of the day phase.
6. Human
7. Human
8. Human
9. Herring

During the night phase, every player can privately vote for a dead player (by PM'ing the host). The first time that at least half of the living players sends in a vote, the player who obtained the most votes will be revived. If that player would be lynched or wolfed, they will survive for one phase at the end of which they will die. During that phase, this player cannot vote, seer, or send in a wolfing.

[close]

Quote from: BlackDragonSlayer on September 29, 2023, 04:11:18 PMThoughts? Should I change one of the Townsfolk to a second seer that's vulnerable to conversion and have both seers be told they're the vulnerable seer? Also, it is a deliberate choice that only the Skeleton Lord knows the identity of all the other Skeletons (as a handicap to the Skeleton team, given the nature of conversion games); should I change it so that all Skeletons are informed of the others' identities every time a new Skeleton is converted?

TWG: There's a Skeleton Inside You Right Now

Spoiler

FOR SEVEN LONG YEARS, THE SKELETON WAR HAS RAGED ON. WE APPROACH A CRITICAL MOMENT, WHEN THE BALANCE OF FATE HANGS HEAVY. THE SKELETON ARMY HAS BEEN DEVASTATED BY THE FORCES OF GOOD, BUT THE SKELETON LORD REMAINS STANDING.

Skeletons:
1. Skeleton Lord: Every night, the Skeleton Lord may pick a player; that player is converted into a Skeleton, who is allied with the skeletons. It is publicly announced when a new Skeleton has risen, and the player who is converted is informed of their new status privately. At any point in the game, the Skeleton Lord may permanently forfeit their ability to convert new skeletons in exchange for being seered as Green for the rest of the game.

Not Skeletons:
2. Slime Wizard: Every night, the Slime Wizard may pick a player; at the end of the night, the Slime Wizard is told that player's color as of the end of the phase (after conversion). The Slime Wizard is immune to the Skeleton Lord's conversion, as the Slime Wizard does not possess a skeleton.
3. Brave Knight: If the Brave Knight is converted to a Skeleton, their vote counts as 0 for the rest of the game. Is told they're a normal Townsfolk.
4. Townsfolk
5. Townsfolk
6. Townsfolk
7. Townsfolk
8. Townsfolk

Skeletons win when # of Skeletons = # of Not Skeletons. Not Skeletons win when all Skeletons have been eliminated.

Host Clarifications:
(any mechanics clarifications will be added here if necessary. Feel free to ask questions!)
- PMs are off for the game.
- No lynch is not an option. Instas work as normal.
- Night start with the first night phase being 48 hours.
- If a player with a night actions does not submit their night action, no night action goes through.
- Color cardflips are on.

[close]

First a clarification question: Skeletons do not have a wolfing, right? The only night "kill" they have is the conversion from the Skeleton Lord, right?

In that case, the slime wizard can never be killed.

Optimal scenario for town: Brave Knight gets converted, Skeleton Lord is lynched. Town wins automatically once the Slime Wizard seers the Brave Knight.

Optimal scenario for wolves: A conversion happens every night, Slime Wizard seers a human every night, a human gets lynched every day. Requires two mislynches and two misseerings from town. Although if the final mislynch fails to hit the Skeleton lord, they still auto win if their next conversion does not hit the Slime Wizard.

I'm not trying to disect your game entirely (want to leave something on the table for the players to figure out if the game gets chosen), but comparing the optimal scenarios the game does feel a little human sided, or at least a little too dependent on the Skeleton Lord surviving day 1.

Personnally not a fan of no-PM games, but I see why it is kinda necessairy with the current setup with only the Skeleton Master knowing the identities of the other Skeletons.

---

Quote from: ThatHiddenCharacter on September 29, 2023, 04:24:45 PMWhat? Just pretend everyone's wearing costumes.

TWG: A Punderful Zoo

Spoiler

1. Direwolf: Coming back from extinction full force. Each Night can DM the host with a player's name. That player is role blocked. Is seer'd green.
2. Wolf: Honestly kinda lackluster in comparison.

3. Scapegoat: At the beginning of the game, is told the identity of the Direwolf. If the Scapegoat reveals this info to anyone in Town, their win and lose conditions switch to match the Wolves. Is seer'd red.
4. Hawkeye: Each Night can DM the host a player's name. Is told that player's color.
5. Butterfly Guardian: Each Night can DM the host with a player's name. If that player were to die, the Butterfly Guardian dies instead.
6. Monkey See, Monkey Do: When Monkey See, Monkey Do is targeted by a power, they permanently gain the ability to use that power for the rest of the game. They may only use one power per Night, even if they have multiple.
7. Baby Panda: On Day 2, the Baby Panda will be revealed publicly in the phase change announcement.
8. Zookeeper: Not sure why they took this job

This game will have role flips and DMs. This game starts on a night phase. No lynch is an option and instas are present.

[close]

I love mass claim games, but yeah, this is clearly unbalanced. The way to balance mass claim games is to give the wolves a significant power boost (which then immediately risks making the wolves overpowered), or to make way more humans unaware of their roles.

But I see you've already gotten that exact advice, so I'll be looking forward to your modified version (and I'll hold of critique until you've actually implemented the changes in you game, that'll make it easier to see exactly what were talking about).

davy, I just went through 2 weeks of training learning how NOT to give up classified information. The timing of that and you proposing your game makes me uncomfortable. ;D

BDS, if the Skeleton Lord isn't lynched, he'll just keep making more Skeletons, right? Once the Skeleton Lord dies, does anything happen at night? Just the Wizard using his power to color reveal?

Quote from: davy on September 30, 2023, 12:58:16 PMFirst a clarification question: Skeletons do not have a wolfing, right? The only night "kill" they have is the conversion from the Skeleton Lord, right?

In that case, the slime wizard can never be killed.

That's correct, the Skeletons don't have a wolfing. The point of the Slime Wizard is that they can never be converted/killed because conversion games tend to be wolf-sided (deduction tends to be more difficult when players you once thought were human suddenly become a lot less human without you knowing :P). Adding a second, vulnerable seer with both seers not knowing who they were might mitigate this issue (if the vulnerable seer gets converted, then that's suddenly big trouble for the humans), but that also brings up the question if two human-aligned seerings are a good idea.

QuoteOptimal scenario for town: Brave Knight gets converted, Skeleton Lord is lynched. Town wins automatically once the Slime Wizard seers the Brave Knight.

Optimal scenario for wolves: A conversion happens every night, Slime Wizard seers a human every night, a human gets lynched every day. Requires two mislynches and two misseerings from town. Although if the final mislynch fails to hit the Skeleton lord, they still auto win if their next conversion does not hit the Slime Wizard.

I'm not trying to disect your game entirely (want to leave something on the table for the players to figure out if the game gets chosen), but comparing the optimal scenarios the game does feel a little human sided, or at least a little too dependent on the Skeleton Lord surviving day 1.

I can see two potential solutions to this:
1. Brave Knight is still seered as green when converted.
and/or
2. When the Skeleton Lord dies, the remaining Skeletons are told each other's identity and gain a wolfing.

Thoughts?

Quote from: SpecsFlyer17 on September 30, 2023, 01:31:04 PMBDS, if the Skeleton Lord isn't lynched, he'll just keep making more Skeletons, right? Once the Skeleton Lord dies, does anything happen at night? Just the Wizard using his power to color reveal?

Correct on both counts.

---

Quote from: davy on September 30, 2023, 12:35:33 PMTWG: President Adam Benford will Make America Great Again

I love the idea that the wolves have a seering and have to hunt for the blue players rather than the humans having a seering and have to hunt for the red players. :P

Are there cardflips in the game? I think the answer to that might influence my next statement.

I think the only issue I have is that the revived person takes two hits to kill, which has the potential to completely screw over the humans (if a wolf is revived) or the wolves (if a human is revived). Considering the revival, humans essentially have three lynches at their disposal before the game ends, and the player who's revived will essentially be unkillable by the opposing faction (basically guaranteed that a human will be revived, especially if there are cardflips in the game; and even with no cardflips, it's also basically guaranteed that the revived person will be someone who was nightkilled. Even if there are no cardflips, I don't think it's worth it for the wolves to try and wolf one of their own on the off-chance they're the person the humans decide to revive).

Ok, I've made a bunch of changes to my game. Some were based on suggestions, some were just thoughts I had about how to maybe make it a bit more balanced.

Quote from: BlackDragonSlayer on September 30, 2023, 03:35:41 PMAre there cardflips in the game? I think the answer to that might influence my next statement.

There are no cardflips.

Quote from: BlackDragonSlayer on September 30, 2023, 03:35:41 PMI think the only issue I have is that the revived person takes two hits to kill, which has the potential to completely screw over the humans (if a wolf is revived) or the wolves (if a human is revived). Considering the revival, humans essentially have three lynches at their disposal before the game ends, and the player who's revived will essentially be unkillable by the opposing faction (basically guaranteed that a human will be revived, especially if there are cardflips in the game; and even with no cardflips, it's also basically guaranteed that the revived person will be someone who was nightkilled. Even if there are no cardflips, I don't think it's worth it for the wolves to try and wolf one of their own on the off-chance they're the person the humans decide to revive).

Yes, that is all intentional. I am open to be persuaded to weaken the human team in some way, though.

---

Quote from: BlackDragonSlayer on September 30, 2023, 03:35:41 PMThat's correct, the Skeletons don't have a wolfing. The point of the Slime Wizard is that they can never be converted/killed because conversion games tend to be wolf-sided (deduction tends to be more difficult when players you once thought were human suddenly become a lot less human without you knowing :P). Adding a second, vulnerable seer with both seers not knowing who they were might mitigate this issue (if the vulnerable seer gets converted, then that's suddenly big trouble for the humans), but that also brings up the question if two human-aligned seerings are a good idea.

I can see two potential solutions to this:
1. Brave Knight is still seered as green when converted.
and/or
2. When the Skeleton Lord dies, the remaining Skeletons are told each other's identity and gain a wolfing.

Thoughts?

Option 1 does too little to address the problem. In my optimal human scenario, once it's clear that all remaining non-slimes are green, in LYLO the slime lord can just not vote while the other players vote each other, which will end up in the Brave Knight dying.

I think some variant of option 2 is the way to go. I'd prefer the skeletons not be told each other's identity so that there is a chance a wolfing hits a skeleton.

Thinking about it a bit more, with the current number of players and win cons the game only really works if the Skeleton Lord is lynched on day 2. If the Lord is lynched on day 1, humans win trivially, and if the Lord has not been lynched by day 2 the Skeletons either just win or the game becomes very hard for the humans. I think tackling this in some way is the most important problem to deal with in your game.

Quote from: ThatHiddenCharacter on September 29, 2023, 04:24:45 PMWhat? Just pretend everyone's wearing costumes.

TWG: A Punderful Zoo

Spoiler

1. Direwolf: Coming back from extinction full force. Each Night can DM the host with a player's name. That player is role blocked. Is seer'd green.
2. Wolf: Honestly kinda lackluster in comparison. If the wolf is roleblocked, the night kill does not go through. If the wolf is dead, then the Direwolf needs to be roleblocked for the night kill to not go through.

3. Scapegoat: A dirty traitor. Shares a win condition with the wolves, but does not know who they are. If the Scapegoat claims to anyone, they lose all their voting power for the rest of the game.
4. Hawkeye: Each Night can DM the host a player's name. Is told that player's color.
5. Butterfly Guardian: Each Night can DM the host with a player's name. If that player were to die, the Butterfly Guardian dies instead.
6. Monkey See, Monkey Do: Is initially told they are a Zookeeper. When Monkey See, Monkey Do is targeted by a power, they permanently gain the ability to use that power for the rest of the game. This only works for the first power that targets them.
7. Baby Panda: Is initially told they are a Zookeeper. On Day 1, the Baby Panda will be revealed publicly in the phase change announcement. If the Baby Panda is killed before they are revealed, then the Hawkeye receives random seering results for the rest of the game. (Obviously, the Hawkeye can no longer see people for who they are since no one in their right mind would kill a Baby Panda.)
8. Zookeeper: Not sure why they took this job.

This game will have color flips and DMs. This game starts on a night phase. No lynch is an option and instas are present.

[close]

Yes, this definitely improves over the previous version.

I suggest only coloring the names, that makes it easier to see where the name stops and where the discription begins.

Clarification questions: is the Baby Panda revealed at the start or the end of day 1?
Is Monkey See, Monkey Do told their role and what power they obtain when they are targeted?
If multiple powers target them in the same phase, which one is considered to be the "first power"?
Is roleblocking permanent? If not, how long does it last?
While the Scapegoat is roleblocked, can they claim without losing their voting power?

At this point, the game feels too dependent on what happens night 1. If the Zookeeper is killed and Monkey gets their power, and the Panda is revealed at start of day, there is one confirmed human and three humans that have to be counterclaimed. If the traitor counterclaims the same role as one of the wolves, that makes for a second confirmed human and a 2/3 shot of killing a wolf aligned player. With seerings in play, it should not be too hard to find the other counterclaimer.

Alternatively, the seer could get killed night 1, Monkey could fail to get their power and the Panda's reveal could be roleblocked. Now humans have only one claimable role, so the wolves and the traitor can hide among the zookeepers. If the humans mislynch just once, the wolves can claim on day 2, both vote for a human and the traitor just needs to add his vote to the pile to guarantee wolf victory.

I think the humans need to have a better chance of winning the war of attrition, which can be accomplished by adding more humans, giving humans a revive (or if you deem that too powerful a guardian that doesn't die themselves), give humans a way not to die to a single wolfing, and/or removing the traitor (that last one seems like a good idea to me anyways).

On the other hand, the wolves need to be able to hide themselves better among the humans. There's basically two routes to take here. The one you've been taking so far is to reduce human awareness of their roles. I think you could take this further by having the specials that think they are normal humans not learn their roles while they are alive. That means wolves can always hide among living normal townies (or fake claim a special role if they are feeling lucky). If you don't want to weaken the human roles even further, the other option is to give the wolves more tools to fight against human claims, but this then quickly ends up making them stronger in the war of attrition as I outlined above.

Quote from: davy on October 01, 2023, 03:23:04 AMYes, this definitely improves over the previous version.

I suggest only coloring the names, that makes it easier to see where the name stops and where the discription begins.

Clarification questions: is the Baby Panda revealed at the start or the end of day 1?
Is Monkey See, Monkey Do told their role and what power they obtain when they are targeted?
If multiple powers target them in the same phase, which one is considered to be the "first power"?
Is roleblocking permanent? If not, how long does it last?
While the Scapegoat is roleblocked, can they claim without losing their voting power?

At this point, the game feels too dependent on what happens night 1. If the Zookeeper is killed and Monkey gets their power, and the Panda is revealed at start of day, there is one confirmed human and three humans that have to be counterclaimed. If the traitor counterclaims the same role as one of the wolves, that makes for a second confirmed human and a 2/3 shot of killing a wolf aligned player. With seerings in play, it should not be too hard to find the other counterclaimer.

Alternatively, the seer could get killed night 1, Monkey could fail to get their power and the Panda's reveal could be roleblocked. Now humans have only one claimable role, so the wolves and the traitor can hide among the zookeepers. If the humans mislynch just once, the wolves can claim on day 2, both vote for a human and the traitor just needs to add his vote to the pile to guarantee wolf victory.

I think the humans need to have a better chance of winning the war of attrition, which can be accomplished by adding more humans, giving humans a revive (or if you deem that too powerful a guardian that doesn't die themselves), give humans a way not to die to a single wolfing, and/or removing the traitor (that last one seems like a good idea to me anyways).

On the other hand, the wolves need to be able to hide themselves better among the humans. There's basically two routes to take here. The one you've been taking so far is to reduce human awareness of their roles. I think you could take this further by having the specials that think they are normal humans not learn their roles while they are alive. That means wolves can always hide among living normal townies (or fake claim a special role if they are feeling lucky). If you don't want to weaken the human roles even further, the other option is to give the wolves more tools to fight against human claims, but this then quickly ends up making them stronger in the war of attrition as I outlined above.

That is all making my head spin. I'm not the best at balancing. TZP wanted the drunk one back, and I think I'm just gonna do that one instead. At least that one is decently balanced. I'll see if I can workshop this one for a future game.

Quote from: ThatHiddenCharacter on September 29, 2023, 04:24:45 PM"What could be scarier than alcoholism?" - TheZeldaPianist275, 2023

TWG: Drunk With Power

Spoiler

DMs are not allowed in this game. No lynch is a voting option. Since wolves do not know each other, wolfings are determined by a vote. A tie is solved with a randomizer, just like with lynch ties. No votes results in a random killing (with the wolves included in the pool, make sure to vote!). This game does not have cardflips.

Roles:

1. Big Alcohol Rep: Once per night can DM the host a player's name. If the player is an Alcoholic, they become a Severe Alcoholic. The player becomes an Alcoholic if they are a Designated Driver.
2-?. Drunk Werewolf: Vanilla werewolf, but drunk. Drunk Wolves (and the BAR) do not know who each other are.
3. Bar Brawler: Once during a day phase can challenge another player. Both the player and the Bar Brawler will die and no lynch will happen during that phase.
4. Bartender: Once per night, can DM a player's name to the host, cutting that player off. In the morning, the player becomes a Designated Driver if they are an Alcoholic. The player becomes an Alcoholic if they are a Severe Alcoholic.
5. Designated Driver: Is sober. Their vote counts as two votes. Is told they are an Alcoholic.
6. Severe Alcoholic: Is so drunk that their vote doesn't count. Is told they are an Alcoholic.
7-?. Alcoholic: Vanilla role, except more drunk.

Host Clarifications:
If both the BAR and Bartender target the same player, the actions are negated.
All "vanilla" human roles are told they are an Alcoholic, and are not made aware of when their status changes.

Fun fact:
One of the original ideas for this game stemmed from the inclusion of a drunk seer. The idea didn't pan out...

[close]

Clarification questions: Does the BAR send in a wolfing as well? What are the victory conditions? Normal victory conditions become a bit wonky with vote manipulation (as in, two humans could still outvote two wolves so it'd be a bit weird to end the game in that state).

As it stands, and assuming normal victory conditions, the wolves are overpowered. If humans mislynch once, they can only win if the wolves kill one of their own on either of the night phases. I suggest adding more Alcoholics (and certainly not more wolves) to balance this out.

Other than that, the game is pretty balanced, though you might want to consider giving the humans a bit more power considering that if the Barkeeper dies, the wolves have two ways of diminishing their voting power, neither of which can be contested. But that also depend on exactly what the victory conditions are.

Quote from: davy on October 01, 2023, 12:32:27 AMThere are no cardflips.

Makes sense. No issues there.

QuoteYes, that is all intentional. I am open to be persuaded to weaken the human team in some way, though.

Considering the revive, humans have three lynches to hit a wolf, with the third lynch having an essentially confirmed human (which already makes things slightly more human-favored). With the revived taking two hits to kill, that confirmed human carries over into the final lynch (assuming humans hit a wolf with their third lynch), which I think makes the game a bit too much favorable to the humans overall. If the humans hit a wolf with one of their first two lynches then it makes things even more favorable to the humans post-revive.

In the rare but not wholly impossible situation where a wolf gets revived (I imagine a situation where the human team is ridiculously uncoordinated :P) and takes two hits to kill the opposite is true and basically makes it impossible for the human to win at that point since the revive can only take place earliest on N2.

---

QuoteOption 1 does too little to address the problem. In my optimal human scenario, once it's clear that all remaining non-slimes are green, in LYLO the slime lord can just not vote while the other players vote each other, which will end up in the Brave Knight dying.

True, but to be fair, the humans have no way of knowing the Brave Knight is the one who was converted, which puts an extra unnecessary risk factor on that potential play.

QuoteI think some variant of option 2 is the way to go. I'd prefer the skeletons not be told each other's identity so that there is a chance a wolfing hits a skeleton.

Thinking about it a bit more, with the current number of players and win cons the game only really works if the Skeleton Lord is lynched on day 2. If the Lord is lynched on day 1, humans win trivially, and if the Lord has not been lynched by day 2 the Skeletons either just win or the game becomes very hard for the humans. I think tackling this in some way is the most important problem to deal with in your game.

Would it help if the Skeleton Lord could only have one Skeleton active at any given time (which would prevent snowballing to some degree if the humans fail to lynch any skeleton Day 1)? And the remaining Skeleton gets a wolfing if the Skeleton Lord dies? The Slime Wizard wouldn't be immune to the wolfing, meaning extra risk for them claiming early.

Additionally, I could also add a Miller if you think it might help.

Quote from: BlackDragonSlayer on October 01, 2023, 11:50:44 AMConsidering the revive, humans have three lynches to hit a wolf, with the third lynch having an essentially confirmed human (which already makes things slightly more human-favored). With the revived taking two hits to kill, that confirmed human carries over into the final lynch (assuming humans hit a wolf with their third lynch), which I think makes the game a bit too much favorable to the humans overall. If the humans hit a wolf with one of their first two lynches then it makes things even more favorable to the humans post-revive.

In the rare but not wholly impossible situation where a wolf gets revived (I imagine a situation where the human team is ridiculously uncoordinated :P) and takes two hits to kill the opposite is true and basically makes it impossible for the human to win at that point since the revive can only take place earliest on N2.

Fair. I really would like to have some mechanic in place to make sure President Bedford doesn't just die immediately on the next night phase. Do you have a suggestion how to make that not a near certainty while keeping the game balanced?

---

Quote from: BlackDragonSlayer on October 01, 2023, 11:50:44 AMTrue, but to be fair, the humans have no way of knowing the Brave Knight is the one who was converted, which puts an extra unnecessary risk factor on that potential play.

If skeleton!BraveKnight is seered green, having only green and blue players before the game has ended (which can be confirmed by the Slime Wizard) will reveal to town that the last remaining skeleton is the Brave Knight.

Quote from: BlackDragonSlayer on October 01, 2023, 11:50:44 AMWould it help if the Skeleton Lord could only have one Skeleton active at any given time (which would prevent snowballing to some degree if the humans fail to lynch any skeleton Day 1)? And the remaining Skeleton gets a wolfing if the Skeleton Lord dies? The Slime Wizard wouldn't be immune to the wolfing, meaning extra risk for them claiming early.

That causes a bit of an odd situation where lynching a skeleton is just as bad as lynching a human. Lynching a human only loses that human and nothing during the night (no wolfing yet, and no conversion possible because there is already one skeleton), whereas lynching a skeleton loses a skeleton, then loses a human and adds a skeleton due to the conversion. Not sure if that is what you want from your game.

Quote from: BlackDragonSlayer on October 01, 2023, 11:50:44 AMAdditionally, I could also add a Miller if you think it might help.

I certainly think adding a Miller is the way to go. You might even want to tweak the Lord's painting power afterwards.

Quote from: davy on October 01, 2023, 05:49:06 AMClarification questions: Does the BAR send in a wolfing as well? What are the victory conditions? Normal victory conditions become a bit wonky with vote manipulation (as in, two humans could still outvote two wolves so it'd be a bit weird to end the game in that state).

As it stands, and assuming normal victory conditions, the wolves are overpowered. If humans mislynch once, they can only win if the wolves kill one of their own on either of the night phases. I suggest adding more Alcoholics (and certainly not more wolves) to balance this out.

Other than that, the game is pretty balanced, though you might want to consider giving the humans a bit more power considering that if the Barkeeper dies, the wolves have two ways of diminishing their voting power, neither of which can be contested. But that also depend on exactly what the victory conditions are.

The BAR also sends in a wolfing vote. The victory conditions are humans must kill all wolves. Wolves win when all humans are dead. Also, the game is set up to include more alcoholics and/or wolves depending on how many people sign up. That's what the #-? means in the role list.

Quote from: davy on October 01, 2023, 12:38:22 PMFair. I really would like to have some mechanic in place to make sure President Bedford doesn't just die immediately on the next night phase. Do you have a suggestion how to make that not a near certainty while keeping the game balanced?

If the game had another day/night cycle (or two) built in from the start, I'd say just make it so they can't get hit the first night after they get revived, but with such a small number of players I'm not sure of any way you could do it without having it be a game-changing advantage.

---

QuoteIf skeleton!BraveKnight is seered green, having only green and blue players before the game has ended (which can be confirmed by the Slime Wizard) will reveal to town that the last remaining skeleton is the Brave Knight.

That's assuming all surviving players (other than the Slime Wizard) have been seered. If you think it's better to get rid of the 0 vote upon conversion but keep being seered green if converted (so a pure benefit for the skeleton team with no downside), I can make that change though.

QuoteThat causes a bit of an odd situation where lynching a skeleton is just as bad as lynching a human. Lynching a human only loses that human and nothing during the night (no wolfing yet, and no conversion possible because there is already one skeleton), whereas lynching a skeleton loses a skeleton, then loses a human and adds a skeleton due to the conversion. Not sure if that is what you want from your game.

Not necessarily! If there's a surviving Skeleton, the Skeleton Lord can take a risk and give up their conversion power, so lynching a human would still be worse. Though, in the case where the Skeleton Lord has given up their conversion power and is the only skeleton left, do you think that should also trigger the addition of a wolfing?

In other words, make it so that the conditions for the Skeletons gaining a wolfing are:
1. There is only one Skeleton remaining.
AND
2. No more Skeleton conversion is possible.

QuoteI certainly think adding a Miller is the way to go. You might even want to tweak the Lord's painting power afterwards.

Miller will be added. o7 This is the way.

Quote from: ThatHiddenCharacter on October 01, 2023, 03:00:57 PMAlso, the game is set up to include more alcoholics and/or wolves depending on how many people sign up. That's what the #-? means in the role list.

Yeah, I understand that much, but I'm telling you that you shouldn't be adding more wolves and that if only 7 players sign up and you start the game as is, the wolves are much too likely to win for this to be a balanced game

---

Quote from: BlackDragonSlayer on October 01, 2023, 05:32:37 PMIf the game had another day/night cycle (or two) built in from the start, I'd say just make it so they can't get hit the first night after they get revived, but with such a small number of players I'm not sure of any way you could do it without having it be a game-changing advantage.

I'll give it some more thought

Quote from: BlackDragonSlayer on October 01, 2023, 05:32:37 PMThat's assuming all surviving players (other than the Slime Wizard) have been seered. If you think it's better to get rid of the 0 vote upon conversion but keep being seered green if converted (so a pure benefit for the skeleton team with no downside), I can make that change though.

I mean, this discussion was assuming no other changes. If you'll implement some form of wolfing, I'll get back to this, but as it stands, having the Knight seered green and their vote counting as 0 does not really work together I think.

Quote from: BlackDragonSlayer on October 01, 2023, 05:32:37 PMNot necessarily! If there's a surviving Skeleton, the Skeleton Lord can take a risk and give up their conversion power, so lynching a human would still be worse. Though, in the case where the Skeleton Lord has given up their conversion power and is the only skeleton left, do you think that should also trigger the addition of a wolfing?

In other words, make it so that the conditions for the Skeletons gaining a wolfing are:
1. There is only one Skeleton remaining.
AND
2. No more Skeleton conversion is possible.

I think that still makes the game a little human-sided. Humans would only lose on the fourth mislynch. This could be addressed though by having fewer players.

If you remove the second condition, meaning the lord can wolf when he has given up his power but still has a skeleton buddy,  humans lose on the second mislynch, which is a little tight, but that could be fine, especially if you make the Slime Lord immune to wolfing as well. This does all but guarantee there will be only one conversion in your game, which may be a bit counter to what you were planning.

So maybe you could add something that if the Lord targets a player when they already have a Skeleton in play, that player loses their vote. That way there is still some town manipulation without it breaking the game too hard

BDS, when were you planning to open the poll?

Quote from: davy on October 02, 2023, 08:06:30 AMBDS, when were you planning to open the poll?

Ending game submissions end of day Friday (October 6th), poll closing Sunday (October 8th).

Quote from: BlackDragonSlayer on September 29, 2023, 04:11:18 PMTWG: There's a Skeleton Inside You Right Now

Made some changes based on recent discussion.

Quote from: BlackDragonSlayer on October 02, 2023, 02:43:13 PMMade some changes based on recent discussion.

I think you forgot to add the max one Skeleton rule

Quote from: BlackDragonSlayer on October 02, 2023, 01:00:20 PMEnding game submissions end of day Friday (October 6th), poll closing Sunday (October 8th).

I think a week for submissions is too long. There's not much of a reason why someone that wants to host couldn't have posted their game in like the first three days of host sign-ups. And the longer sign-ups take, the longer players who just want to play have to wait for the next game.

Not TWC but I also don't think anyone else is even going to submit a game

*submits an imaginary game just to spite TZP*

Quote from: davy on October 02, 2023, 11:10:26 PMI think you forgot to add the max one Skeleton rule

Quote from: BlackDragonSlayer on September 29, 2023, 04:11:18 PMEvery night, as long as there isn't currently a living Skeleton, the Skeleton Lord may pick a player; that player is converted into a Skeleton, who is allied with the skeletons.

It's in there!!

Quote from: davy on October 02, 2023, 11:14:05 PMI think a week for submissions is too long. There's not much of a reason why someone that wants to host couldn't have posted their game in like the first three days of host sign-ups. And the longer sign-ups take, the longer players who just want to play have to wait for the next game.

Last sign-ups, Kaiveran submitted a game last-minute (and ended up winning the poll). If you want me to put the poll up end of day tomorrow (Wednesday the 4th), I can also do that, but with the current spacing it generally works out to approximately one game a month, which I think is ideal to help avoid player burnout.

Quote from: TheZeldaPianist275 on October 03, 2023, 12:01:00 PMNot TWC but I also don't think anyone else is even going to submit a game

I lied lol. Impulsively bringing back an NSM classic:

(https://i.imgur.com/vIPQ8VO.jpg)

TWG CXVII: The Lantern Keeper Redux

On a dark and stormy October night, 10 friends found themselves in a small, lantern-lit village. The village was strangely dark; entering it seemed to drown out all the light from the moon, rendering it difficult to see anything clearly. The only things making anything visible at all? Three old, rusty lanterns hanging from poles lining the street.

Wolves
1. Master Wolf
2. Wolf
3. Wolf

Humans
4. Seer--can send in a PM every night to see the color of a person's role.
5. Human
6. Human
7. Human
8. Human
9. Human

??
10. The Strange Man
A man who DOES NOT WANT to be seen. Every night phase he will privately guess the identities of the lanterns holders, and upon correctly guessing their identities, the lanterns are lost to the night, and their holders are killed, along with any red player. He cannot be wolfed; if an attempt to do so is made, the public will not be informed.

Items
3 Lanterns of the Night: at the start of the game, 3 randomly chosen players will become Lantern Holders and receive a Lantern of the Night. Each night, the 3 lanterns holders will privately vote to seer one of the holders. That holder's color is then privately disclosed to the other two holders. A lantern may be passed to another player who does not hold a lantern once per NIGHT PHASE ONLY, and the lantern holders will always be made aware of any changes of possession of a lantern.

Misc.
-The Strange Man is not in the initial pool of possible lantern holders, but he can be passed a lantern thereafter.
-If someone is killed while in possession of a lantern, it will be publicly announced that a lantern has been put out, and the Strange Man will only have to guess the holders of the remaining lanterns. However, if all three lantern holders are killed before the Strange Man guesses their identities, the Strange Man will die as well.
-No cardflips, instas are on. Classic rules, natch.

Victory Conditions
Wolves win when their numbers are at parity with humans & The Strange Man combined.
Humans win when the wolves are dead.
The Strange Man wins upon successfully guessing the lantern holders, but the game does not necessarily have to end at that point. Either of the other two teams may win with the Strange Man.

I remember the lantern keeper from TWG LI, where I died as a wolf N1 because they guessed all the lantern holders :morton2:

Poll will go up end of day today, and two votes per person!!

Quote from: BlackDragonSlayer on October 04, 2023, 02:23:47 PMI remember the lantern keeper from TWG LI, where I died as a wolf N1 because they guessed all the lantern holders :morton2:

I still think about that sometimes. Waddle went on a friggin TEAR

Yeah I remember the Lantern Keeper game like it was yesterday. Good times.

Quote from: TheZeldaPianist275 on October 04, 2023, 11:14:53 AM10. The Strange Man
and upon correctly guessing their identities, the lanterns are lost to the night, and their holders are killed, along with any red player.

What does the part about the red player mean? If the Strange Man (spooky) guesses you correctly, are you killed regardless of color, or only if you're a red wolf?

Poll's up!

Quote from: SpecsFlyer17 on October 05, 2023, 03:08:14 AMWhat does the part about the red player mean? If the Strange Man (spooky) guesses you correctly, are you killed regardless of color, or only if you're a red wolf?

If the Strange Man hits his win condition with a successful guess, all players holding lanterns die, along with whichever regular wolves have not been killed. Depending on how things shake out in the game, it could be only one person (if only one lantern is left and the sole remaining normal wolf has it) or it could be as many as five (if all three lanterns are held by human players and both normal wolves are still alive).

Also, players will not be informed who passed them a lantern.

Quote from: TheZeldaPianist275 on October 04, 2023, 11:14:53 AMI lied lol. Impulsively bringing back an NSM classic:

(https://i.imgur.com/vIPQ8VO.jpg)

TWG CXVII: The Lantern Keeper Redux

Spoiler

On a dark and stormy October night, 10 friends found themselves in a small, lantern-lit village. The village was strangely dark; entering it seemed to drown out all the light from the moon, rendering it difficult to see anything clearly. The only things making anything visible at all? Three old, rusty lanterns hanging from poles lining the street.

Wolves
1. Master Wolf
2. Wolf
3. Wolf

Humans
4. Seer--can send in a PM every night to see the color of a person's role.
5. Human
6. Human
7. Human
8. Human
9. Human

??
10. The Strange Man
A man who DOES NOT WANT to be seen. Every night phase he will privately guess the identities of the lanterns holders, and upon correctly guessing their identities, the lanterns are lost to the night, and their holders are killed, along with any red player. He cannot be wolfed; if an attempt to do so is made, the public will not be informed.

Items
3 Lanterns of the Night: at the start of the game, 3 randomly chosen players will become Lantern Holders and receive a Lantern of the Night. Each night, the 3 lanterns holders will privately vote to seer one of the holders. That holder's color is then privately disclosed to the other two holders. A lantern may be passed to another player who does not hold a lantern once per NIGHT PHASE ONLY, and the lantern holders will always be made aware of any changes of possession of a lantern.

Misc.
-The Strange Man is not in the initial pool of possible lantern holders, but he can be passed a lantern thereafter.
-If someone is killed while in possession of a lantern, it will be publicly announced that a lantern has been put out, and the Strange Man will only have to guess the holders of the remaining lanterns. However, if all three lantern holders are killed before the Strange Man guesses their identities, the Strange Man will die as well.
-No cardflips, instas are on. Classic rules, natch.

Victory Conditions
Wolves win when their numbers are at parity with humans & The Strange Man combined.
Humans win when the wolves are dead.
The Strange Man wins upon successfully guessing the lantern holders, but the game does not necessarily have to end at that point. Either of the other two teams may win with the Strange Man.

[close]

I know you've kept it identical to the original, but I still think you should add a miller. Firstly it makes sure that a red seering is not perfectly accurate, seccondly it disincentivizes humans from just teaming up with the Strange Man and revealing all Lantern Keepers if the miller is guaranteed to die with a correct guess.

Also just to make sure: is the Strange Man actually seered purple?

Specs and I were discussing this earlier today actually. I agree that as it stands, dominant strategy is claim lantern holder and then let the strange man decimate both teams, which is against the spirit of the game. However, I resist the idea of adding a miller because up to six (!) people dying off of the strange man's guess seems a bit of overkill. Here are a couple other workarounds I've thought of

When the Strange Man guesses correctly, either

a) lantern holders + master wolf die
b) just lantern holders die
c) Game ends instantly and only Strange Man wins

Thoughts on any of those options? This game was designed back in the era of TWG where balancing wasn't hugely important because people...didn't really play that hard. Right now I'm leaning toward b). And yes, the Strange Man is seered purple.

Quote from: TheZeldaPianist275 on October 05, 2023, 09:12:31 AMSpecs and I were discussing this earlier today actually. I agree that as it stands, dominant strategy is claim lantern holder and then let the strange man decimate both teams, which is against the spirit of the game. However, I resist the idea of adding a miller because up to six (!) people dying off of the strange man's guess seems a bit of overkill. Here are a couple other workarounds I've thought of

When the Strange Man guesses correctly, either

a) lantern holders + master wolf die
b) just lantern holders die
c) Game ends instantly and only Strange Man wins

Thoughts on any of those options? This game was designed back in the era of TWG where balancing wasn't hugely important because people...didn't really play that hard. Right now I'm leaning toward b). And yes, the Strange Man is seered purple.

Out of these three, I prefer lantern holders + master wolf dying. Just lantern holders dying makes the game to swingy if all players holding the lanterns happen to be humans. The game ending instantly on a random guess would be quite annoying.

My preference would be lantern holders + 1 random wolf + 1 random human (not seer to not make it too swingy).

Also potentially making the Master Wolf immune to this kill (even if he has a lantern) so it is not possible that this kill just gets rid of all three wolves.

And I'd still add a miller to mess with the seer's abilities.

Made an edit to my game following BDS's suggestion:

QuoteIf that player would be lynched or wolfed, they will survive for one phase at the end of which they will die. During that phase, this player cannot vote, seer, or send in a wolfing.

spoiler tagged for the sake of the people who don't care about this

My fear with adding a Miller is that it's a human team nerf, and having 3 wolves in a 10-player game is already unusually high. For the same reason I think I'd rather avoid having the Strange Man kill lantern holders + random wolf + random human—it just takes too big a chunk out of the human team, in all likelihood. It's messier that way too. I think I'd rather just go lanterns holders + master wolf. Is there an obvious problem with that I'm not spotting?

If you think making one of the humans a miller and having an accurate Strange Man guess kill lantern holders+master wolf balances things out, I'll defer to your judgment on those pieces. I'm good w that.

[close]

Quote from: TheZeldaPianist275 on October 05, 2023, 10:16:59 AM

spoiler tagged for the sake of the people who don't care about this

My fear with adding a Miller is that it's a human team nerf, and having 3 wolves in a 10-player game is already unusually high. For the same reason I think I'd rather avoid having the Strange Man kill lantern holders + random wolf + random human—it just takes too big a chunk out of the human team, in all likelihood. It's messier that way too. I think I'd rather just go lanterns holders + master wolf. Is there an obvious problem with that I'm not spotting?

If you think making one of the humans a miller and having an accurate Strange Man guess kill lantern holders+master wolf balances things out, I'll defer to your judgment on those pieces. I'm good w that.

[close]

Ok, ran some number and I conclude that with this number of wolves and humans, a miller is not necessairy. I would say that Strange Man kills one of the red wolves (determined before the game starts) then rather than the master wolf, so that when the Strange Man guesses correctly, the game doesn't just end when the Seer finds both reds.

I think that solves it. Thanks Davy.

Would the red wolf that is tied to the Strange Man's win condition know it ahead of time? Basically would it be a separate role?

I'm thinking probably not. Would probably just say that one of the normal wolves has a special mark on him that cause him to die when the Strange Man puts out the lanterns, but the wolf doesn't know it.

Congrats for winning TZP. You can make player sign-ups now.