Submission Information:
Series: Star Fox
Game: Star Fox 64
Console: Nintendo 64
Title: Area 6
Instrumentation Solo Piano
Arranger: Fernman (https://www.ninsheetmusic.org/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=8072)
Link to song.
Please check formatting
Hi! Welcome to NinSheetMusic :)
The way the submissions process works is community members give their feedback on others' sheets, which the arranger can implement at their own discretion. Once 2 updaters (NSM staff) give their approval to a sheet, it gets accepted and will be available on the site from the next update!
Your sheet is looking pretty good for a first submission (much better than mine lmao). However, before the updaters or anyone else goes over it in more detail, I think there are a bunch of points you can walk through on your own first:
First, you can make sure your sheet is 100% in line with the Formatting Guidelines (https://www.ninsheetmusic.org/forum/index.php?topic=481.0). I can see you pretty much have the hang of it already, but there are a few small details you missed. (If you are using full Finale, I recommend copying your existing sheet into the NSM template file [linked in the Formatting Guidelines], if you're using MuseScore to import your sheets then check out this guide (https://www.ninsheetmusic.org/forum/index.php?topic=11860.0) instead.)
After that, you can read through this guide (https://www.ninsheetmusic.org/forum/index.php?topic=10492.0) to make sure the rhythms you use are written correctly. This helps make your sheet easier to read, and thus more likely to be played and enjoyed!
If you have any questions big or small feel free to ask here in this thread or on Discord, the community is happy to help!
I have updated the files and I think I've addressed the rhythm writing and the formatting
Hey, a couple things I noticed:
First off, at m2 beat 3.5, you have the 3 LH 8th notes beamed together. You can keep them that way if you want, or you can separate the beaming so that the offbeat 8th stands out. (For what it's worth I prefer the separate beaming.)
At m23 RH and elsewhere, you've got a dotted 8th note-regular 8th note with a 16th rest. This isn't an optimal pattern for that sort of rhythm: I'd recommend having a dotted 8th note-16th note with an 8th note rest. If you really want that second note to be long you can add a legato mark.
At m30 you have a double barline that...just shouldn't be there. Typically it's reserved for the end of the piece, so I don't know why that's there.
And finally, at m46 you seem to have a custom ending that's not in the original track. I know it's counter-intuitive to have a piano sheet just repeat without an actual ending, but that's typically how sheets are handled here. If you still want to write an ending then I'd recommend a measure or two at most: keep it very simple. (Trust me, I used to write endings of my own so it took me a while to get used to it too.)
Just cosmetic stuff, but then I think someone will be able to get to the actual meat of the arrangement after this :)
Quote from: Fantastic Ike on March 07, 2023, 05:54:38 AMJust cosmetic stuff, but then I think someone will be able to get to the actual meat of the arrangement after this :)
I'll get to this over the next few days, but in the meantime..
Quote from: Fantastic Ike on March 07, 2023, 05:54:38 AMFirst off, at m2 beat 3.5, you have the 3 LH 8th notes beamed together. You can keep them that way if you want, or you can separate the beaming so that the offbeat 8th stands out. (For what it's worth I prefer the separate beaming.)
Either way works, see what fits you better!
One more thing with how to write the rhythms: Beat 2 in the RH of m12 can be simplified to just a half note, as can any other occurences of this figure.
The rest of the rhythms (aside from the ones Fantastic Ike mentioned) look great! Good job on that.
A few more points you missed concerning the formatting:
- Your title (and header) text are missing "these markings" surrounding them
- The Composition by... text doesn't look like it's all the same font size (should be 12pt), could you check over that?
- Your page number shouldnt be bold, and should be on the same height as the header
- The header text should text-wise be the same as the title (so no game name), text size and styling are fine like you have it though
Since I'm coming from Musescore over to Notepad I will wait to make those cosmetic edits. Though making changes back and forth between Musescore and notepad is starting to become a hassle. I've read the instructions on how to do it, there just has to be an easier way.
Quote from: Fantastic Ike on March 07, 2023, 05:54:38 AMFirst off, at m2 beat 3.5, you have the 3 LH 8th notes beamed together. You can keep them that way if you want, or you can separate the beaming so that the offbeat 8th stands out. (For what it's worth I prefer the separate beaming.)
I will make a note to separate them.
Quote from: Fantastic Ike on March 07, 2023, 05:54:38 AMAt m23 RH and elsewhere, you've got a dotted 8th note-regular 8th note with a 16th rest. This isn't an optimal pattern for that sort of rhythm: I'd recommend having a dotted 8th note-16th note with an 8th note rest. If you really want that second note to be long you can add a legato mark.
That's a good idea, I will make note of this.
Quote from: Fantastic Ike on March 07, 2023, 05:54:38 AMAt m30 you have a double barline that...just shouldn't be there. Typically it's reserved for the end of the piece, so I don't know why that's there.
That must have formatted during the "musescore cleaner" I don't know how to get rid of that in notepad, if it's possible.
Quote from: Fantastic Ike on March 07, 2023, 05:54:38 AMAnd finally, at m46 you seem to have a custom ending that's not in the original track. I know it's counter-intuitive to have a piano sheet just repeat without an actual ending, but that's typically how sheets are handled here. If you still want to write an ending then I'd recommend a measure or two at most: keep it very simple. (Trust me, I used to write endings of my own so it took me a while to get used to it too.)
I used to write endings that were just a whole note, but i find those to be just boring or even if it is two measures it can be abrupt. Since when most of us listen to a looped game song, before the song fades away the track begins again. So that is what i tried doing. Start the track again and have it end as soon as possible.
Quote from: XiaoMigros on March 07, 2023, 08:54:03 AMA few more points you missed concerning the formatting:
- Your title (and header) text are missing "these markings" surrounding them
- Your page number shouldnt be bold, and should be on the same height as the header
1. I understand I need to fit the formatting rules, but what is the rationale for quotation markings?
2. The page number got stripped during the Muse to Notepad conversion so I put it in manually I need to figure out what is happening.
Thanks you two, again I will get to these once the rest of the review takes place so i don't have to go back and forth between Muse and notepad so often.[/list]
QuoteSince I'm coming from Musescore over to Notepad I will wait to make those cosmetic edits. Though making changes back and forth between Musescore and notepad is starting to become a hassle. I've read the instructions on how to do it, there just has to be an easier way.
Ahh, that explains it. Yeah, I do that myself and it's a hassle. Don't really have any tips though.
QuoteI used to write endings that were just a whole note, but i find those to be just boring or even if it is two measures it can be abrupt. Since when most of us listen to a looped game song, before the song fades away the track begins again. So that is what i tried doing. Start the track again and have it end as soon as possible.
Yeah, I understand. Typically we don't have actual endings to most of our sheets anyway, just wanted to let you know in advance because I'm pretty sure updaters will have you change it later.
Quote from: Fernman on March 07, 2023, 09:34:18 AM1. I understand I need to fit the formatting rules, but what is the rationale for quotation markings?
I honestly have no clue, my best guess is that it is/was used to differentiate between title and not-title where it otherwise wouldn't be clear.
Quote from: Fernman on March 07, 2023, 09:34:18 AM2. The page number got stripped during the Muse to Notepad conversion so I put it in manually I need to figure out what is happening.
Don't worry about that, we can sort that at the end like you said. So for now, let's get to the arrangement itself:
- m1: You've left out a lot of the brass parts between beats 1-4, the rhythmic figure on beat 1 is played on beats 2 and 3 as well (just with different pitches). If you want, you could combine all of that into one R.H. part so that the L.H. can play the bass notes
- m2-m3: Not only do I not hear chords in this range, but the sheet is probably better off without them: I think writing the bass and/or timpani part here is better suited. For the R.H. in m3, i hear a middle C on beat 2.
- m4: Since this is a D major chord, the Gb should be written as F#. I also think it makes sense to write the whole track in D major, so you can change the key signature as well.
- m4-5: I understand you don't want the R.H. part to be empty here, but playing D4 here seems a little too high (especially since you chose to write the higher of 2 parts in the L.H. already). I suggest you leave it empty, or maybe have the R.H. play the L.H. part and the L.H. play the bass?
- In general for the L.H. part, I don't think the first note in the repeating figure should be dotted. To me, it sounds the same length as the second notes
- m8-10 & m12-13: For the R.H. here I would use different layers/voices to include more of the brass. For m10, you can add the high G played by the brass as well, which is still fairly simple to play
- m13: In the L.H. there's a Bb which should be Bn. You might also want to consider adding courtesy accidentals for this measure
- m16-17: The chords you have here are correct, but the way you arranged them could match the original more closely. Writing the R.H. as triads, and then writing the bass line in the L.H. would be my suggestion here
- m18-21: Again, the comment about using different layers for more brass. However, it would be a little harder to play here so if you don't want to add to your current part that's okay
- m20: In the R.H. we have an E7 chord (the E is in the bass and not present in your sheet), so the Ab should be written as G#
- m22: RH: I think your simplification of the original works here, however I would sustain the Bb on beat 2 again using another voice/layer.
L.H. I don't hear the brass part you have written here anymore, only the bass. I think the brass part returns around m30 - m23-27: I think using triads everywhere in the R.H. works better here (except in m22 and 26 obviously)
- m23 beat 4.5 RH: I hear an A here instead of Bb
- m29: There's a nice lead-in line played by the brass part I mentioned earlier which might be nice to include for a transition back to it
- m30-end: Most of what I'd have to say here is similar to what I've already said, so take my points from earlier, apply them here, and see how far you get
I have a few more things to talk about once you've worked through this, but that should be enough for now lmao
Feel free to ask if you have any questions or uncertainties!
Quote from: XiaoMigros on March 13, 2023, 07:46:41 AM- m1: You've left out a lot of the brass parts between beats 1-4, the rhythmic figure on beat 1 is played on beats 2 and 3 as well (just with different pitches). If you want, you could combine all of that into one R.H. part so that the L.H. can play the bass notes
Yes I considered that, and although that is true in the OST, when one hears it and remembers it they just hear the m1 as I arranged it. If I add the baseline I feel that you would lose that thrill of hearing that intro before getting into the baseline. It gets lost with the baseline.
Quote from: XiaoMigros on March 13, 2023, 07:46:41 AM- m2-m3: Not only do I not hear chords in this range, but the sheet is probably better off without them: I think writing the bass and/or timpani part here is better suited. For the R.H. in m3, i hear a middle C on beat 2.
Correct there are no chords in that range in the base, they are actually an octave lower, I brought them up since if they were any lower I think it would bring down the song.
Quote from: XiaoMigros on March 13, 2023, 07:46:41 AM- m4: Since this is a D major chord, the Gb should be written as F#. I also think it makes sense to write the whole track in D major, so you can change the key signature as well.
I don't disagree with you on changing the Key signature, I just don't understand enough music theory to feel comfortable making that change. and not understanding what else that impacts. The notes themselves won't change, in a way, but I'm sure there is more too it. Is there somewhere I can learn more?
Quote from: XiaoMigros on March 13, 2023, 07:46:41 AM- m4-5: I understand you don't want the R.H. part to be empty here, but playing D4 here seems a little too high (especially since you chose to write the higher of 2 parts in the L.H. already). I suggest you leave it empty, or maybe have the R.H. play the L.H. part and the L.H. play the bass?
I agree with removing the D4
Quote from: XiaoMigros on March 13, 2023, 07:46:41 AM- In general for the L.H. part, I don't think the first note in the repeating figure should be dotted. To me, it sounds the same length as the second notes
Per the MIDI Rip it has a dotted first note, followed by two tied eights notes, the last of which is dotted, followed by a stacatto'd quarter. So they do sound very similar. I know you've said never trust a MIDI rip, but I don't see any harm in leaving this the way it is.
Quote from: XiaoMigros on March 13, 2023, 07:46:41 AM- m8-10 & m12-13: For the R.H. here I would use different layers/voices to include more of the brass. For m10, you can add the high G played by the brass as well, which is still fairly simple to play
My hand reach is an octave, playing said octave is doable, but adding more notes to the mix or moving with octaves is not in my current skill range.
I want to make this a playable song. Adding the high G in m10 is not preferred. As for the rest I think I'm missing a few notes in between, but I within one instrument (piano) I think would make too much movement and lose the feel of the song.
Quote from: XiaoMigros on March 13, 2023, 07:46:41 AM- m13: In the L.H. there's a Bb which should be Bn. You might also want to consider adding courtesy accidentals for this measure
I fixed the Bn
Quote from: XiaoMigros on March 13, 2023, 07:46:41 AM- m16-17: The chords you have here are correct, but the way you arranged them could match the original more closely. Writing the R.H. as triads, and then writing the bass line in the L.H. would be my suggestion here
I'll add the triads, but for the most part the baseline matches the right hand. The timpani is in the background, but it isn't as noticeable.
Quote from: XiaoMigros on March 13, 2023, 07:46:41 AM- m18-21: Again, the comment about using different layers for more brass. However, it would be a little harder to play here so if you don't want to add to your current part that's okay
Correct I want to make it playable.
Quote from: XiaoMigros on March 13, 2023, 07:46:41 AM- m20: In the R.H. we have an E7 chord (the E is in the bass and not present in your sheet), so the Ab should be written as G#
I left out the E in the left hand to A) give time to get to the lower section and B) it is more a more dramatic entrance.
Quote from: XiaoMigros on March 13, 2023, 07:46:41 AM- m22: RH: I think your simplification of the original works here, however I would sustain the Bb on beat 2 again using another voice/layer.
L.H. I don't hear the brass part you have written here anymore, only the bass. I think the brass part returns around m30
I don't disagree with the holding the Bb, I'm just not use to playing with different voices even though that is within reach. Trying it out just now the fingering is very difficult and I want this to be playable to a typical player.
LH: I am not sure what you aren't hearing. The melody breaks in two just like in the beginning and the bass is apparent. The LH bass section was an octave lower, I just brought it up an octave.
Quote from: XiaoMigros on March 13, 2023, 07:46:41 AM- m23-27: I think using triads everywhere in the R.H. works better here (except in m22 and 26 obviously)
Playing triads with the dotted eight/sixteenth note rythm is a bit of a challenge. I'm sure it can be done with enough practice, I just want it to playable. So I rather leave it out then have it be "perfect" I probably will add triads to 24 and 25 whole notes.
Quote from: XiaoMigros on March 13, 2023, 07:46:41 AM- m23 beat 4.5 RH: I hear an A here instead of Bb
Fixed.
Quote from: XiaoMigros on March 13, 2023, 07:46:41 AM- m29: There's a nice lead-in line played by the brass part I mentioned earlier which might be nice to include for a transition back to it
I hear it, I just feel it sounds interjected and is out of place. Either the RH whole note is lost and we pick something else up or the bass pattern is lost. And no, I am not doing multiple voices.
I have reviewed M30+ and other than the dotted quarter notes, I think you are drawing my attention to the background brass particularly starting in measures 34. If I were to include those in, the song would feel like its trying to do too much at once. Focusing on just the core aspect of it will keep it playable and keep the spirit of the composition. I think I've addressed the previous formatting findings.
Quote from: Fernman on March 13, 2023, 11:06:35 AMYes I considered that, and although that is true in the OST, when one hears it and remembers it they just hear the m1 as I arranged it. If I add the baseline I feel that you would lose that thrill of hearing that intro before getting into the baseline. It gets lost with the baseline.
Fair enough, but in that case we should make sure what you have written there is actually present in the original:
- m2 L.H: I don't hear any Ds here
- m3 L.H: I don't hear any chords in this measure other than C
- m4 L.H. I don't hear the F#
Quote from: Fernman on March 13, 2023, 11:06:35 AMCorrect there are no chords in that range in the base, they are actually an octave lower, I brought them up since if they were any lower I think it would bring down the song.
Again I strongly suggest this be changed, I really don't think Bb2 and C3 are that low.
Quote from: Fernman on March 13, 2023, 11:06:35 AMI don't disagree with you on changing the Key signature, I just don't understand enough music theory to feel comfortable making that change. and not understanding what else that impacts. The notes themselves won't change, in a way, but I'm sure there is more too it. Is there somewhere I can learn more?
That's okay! It's definitely not an easy example to determine the keysig from.
There's some elements of music theory behind it (for example, the intro very clearly leads into D, and we stay in D for a while after that), but also a lot of my 'reasoning' is just my gut feeling. There are also a lot of places where the felt key signature changes, I'm just not sure that's worth specifying (constantly changing key signature is unhelpful and annoying).
As for learning more, you can do what I did to learn by looking at other sheet music and trying to spot patterns in it. It's even more helpful if you can listen to the original and read along on the sheet. While there are some rules to determine the key signature which work fine in 80% of cases, the remaining 20% is much more difficult to exclusively define. That, unfortunately, means training your gut feeling, which takes time. Maybe some others have some more concrete tips though..
Quote from: Fernman on March 13, 2023, 11:06:35 AMPer the MIDI Rip it has a dotted first note, followed by two tied eights notes, the last of which is dotted, followed by a stacatto'd quarter. So they do sound very similar. I know you've said never trust a MIDI rip, but I don't see any harm in leaving this the way it is.
It's not that I don't trust midi rips per se, it's just that I work a lot with them, and know what mistakes notation programs make when importing them. They round certain durations, and they always round up in note length and not down. But yes, at NSM we tend to prioritise what we actually hear over what a midi rip says.
That aside, I think writing these dotted quarters as regular quarters makes more sense from a pianistical view too, as it creates a less uneven feel.
Quote from: Fernman on March 13, 2023, 11:06:35 AMMy hand reach is an octave, playing said octave is doable, but adding more notes to the mix or moving with octaves is not in my current skill range.
I want to make this a playable song. Adding the high G in m10 is not preferred. As for the rest I think I'm missing a few notes in between, but I within one instrument (piano) I think would make too much movement and lose the feel of the song.
Regardless, I think you are best writing this in 2 voices/layers even if you don't add more notes to it, it just makes it clear to the performer what exactly is going on.
Quote from: Fernman on March 13, 2023, 11:06:35 AMI'll add the triads, but for the most part the baseline matches the right hand. The timpani is in the background, but it isn't as noticeable.
I agree the timpani isn't as audible, but there's another bass part that I think is worth including (rather than adding a part that doesn't exist)
Quote from: Fernman on March 13, 2023, 11:06:35 AMI left out the E in the left hand to A) give time to get to the lower section and B) it is more a more dramatic entrance.
Ah sorry, I wasn't clear enough here. I wasn't trying to say you should add the E to your sheet, I was just explaining
why the Ab in the R.H. should be G#. That's fixed now though, so all is well
Quote from: Fernman on March 13, 2023, 11:06:35 AMI don't disagree with the holding the Bb, I'm just not use to playing with different voices even though that is within reach. Trying it out just now the fingering is very difficult and I want this to be playable to a typical player.
I'm far from a skilled player but I've tested this and I could play it perfectly fine after 3 tries. Again, I will suggest changing this (as many other sheets on site use layers/voices in a similar fashion)
Quote from: Fernman on March 13, 2023, 11:06:35 AMLH: I am not sure what you aren't hearing. The melody breaks in two just like in the beginning and the bass is apparent. The LH bass section was an octave lower, I just brought it up an octave.
The bass in this track consists of 3 parts: One is in a tenor-ish range, which you have written in the L.H. from m4-15 and m30-47. Another one plays octaves in the low bass range (think tuba), and the last part is the timpani. The first 2 parts I mentioned are quite difficult to discern from one another, but I hear a drop in intensity around m18 and can't hear the first part anymore after that (until m29/30 as I mentioned last post). Hence why I said I don't hear your L.H. part in the original anymore, I don't hear these chords that you have written in the sheet.
Quote from: Fernman on March 13, 2023, 11:06:35 AMPlaying triads with the dotted eight/sixteenth note rythm is a bit of a challenge. I'm sure it can be done with enough practice, I just want it to playable. So I rather leave it out then have it be "perfect" I probably will add triads to 24 and 25 whole notes.
That's a fair compromise
Quote from: Fernman on March 13, 2023, 11:06:35 AMI hear it, I just feel it sounds interjected and is out of place. Either the RH whole note is lost and we pick something else up or the bass pattern is lost.
I meant this as a transition between the low bass part (the one I mention 2 points up) back to the high bass part. The bass pattern would be lost, yes, I just thought it would be a nice touch
Quote from: Fernman on March 13, 2023, 11:06:35 AMI have reviewed M30+ and other than the dotted quarter notes, I think you are drawing my attention to the background brass particularly starting in measures 34. If I were to include those in, the song would feel like its trying to do too much at once. Focusing on just the core aspect of it will keep it playable and keep the spirit of the composition. I think I've addressed the previous formatting findings.
I understand that! I was more referring to the things I've brought up in this post again, speak the dotted quarters and using more than one voice/layer.
Quote from: XiaoMigros on March 13, 2023, 11:55:11 PMFair enough, but in that case we should make sure what you have written there is actually present in the original:
- m2 L.H: I don't hear any Ds here
- m3 L.H: I don't hear any chords in this measure other than C
- m4 L.H. I don't hear the F#
1. I'm assuming you mean that there aren't any D's present in the sheet music. The D is held over from measure 1, but since its in the LH, I can't reach an octave since there is a D in the LH already.
2. I'm assuming you mean in the RH you hear the C chord, In the LH there is only the C3 and C2 octave. Instead of playing that low making the RH octave one lower seemed to be fitting.
3. I won't disagree that you don't hear it, but it is in the MIDI Rip, Musically, if this is a D major chord then is there any harm in including it?
Quote from: XiaoMigros on March 13, 2023, 11:55:11 PMAgain I strongly suggest this be changed, I really don't think Bb2 and C3 are that low.
I disagree, the rest of the song is above C3 so if it were to move down it would give a weird, deep, and uneasy entrance that is inconsistent with the rest of the piano arrangment. It may sound great in the OST, but adapted for the Piano it sounds out of place when the rest of the song is higher.
Quote from: XiaoMigros on March 13, 2023, 11:55:11 PMThat aside, I think writing these dotted quarters as regular quarters makes more sense from a pianistical view too, as it creates a less uneven feel.
Ok, I've though it through and agree. It does make it easier to count and coordinate as well.
Quote from: XiaoMigros on March 13, 2023, 11:55:11 PMRegardless, I think you are best writing this in 2 voices/layers even if you don't add more notes to it, it just makes it clear to the performer what exactly is going on.
I'll go along with this one.
Quote from: XiaoMigros on March 13, 2023, 11:55:11 PMI agree the timpani isn't as audible, but there's another bass part that I think is worth including (rather than adding a part that doesn't exist)
If we are talking about m16 and m17, I slowed down the OST and I could only hear the chord progression as written. I don't hear anything else.
Quote from: XiaoMigros on March 13, 2023, 11:55:11 PMI'm far from a skilled player but I've tested this and I could play it perfectly fine after 3 tries. Again, I will suggest changing this (as many other sheets on site use layers/voices in a similar fashion)
You must have a larger reach than I because I couldn't do that. While I understand ninsheet's has a high standard, I try to make my sheets playable to the typical player. I'll concede on this even though I'm not sure it makes as much of an auditory difference when one remembers the song they remember the lower repeat.
Quote from: XiaoMigros on March 13, 2023, 11:55:11 PMThe bass in this track consists of 3 parts: One is in a tenor-ish range, which you have written in the L.H. from m4-15 and m30-47. Another one plays octaves in the low bass range (think tuba), and the last part is the timpani. The first 2 parts I mentioned are quite difficult to discern from one another, but I hear a drop in intensity around m18 and can't hear the first part anymore after that (until m29/30 as I mentioned last post). Hence why I said I don't hear your L.H. part in the original anymore, I don't hear these chords that you have written in the sheet.
If we are still talking m22, the Tuba, i suppose, is playing an a2 and a1 octave. That is WAY too low and it doesn't fit with the rest of the arrangement. So I brought it up an octave and to make it more fitting with the rest of the arrangement I added a harmonic note beneath the A3 to make it appear fuller. It is fitting and in the spirit of the song even though one doesn't hear those exact notes per say.
Quote from: XiaoMigros on March 13, 2023, 11:55:11 PMI meant this as a transition between the low bass part (the one I mention 2 points up) back to the high bass part. The bass pattern would be lost, yes, I just thought it would be a nice touch
I won't disagree, but the bass pattern is what keeps the song going.
Quote from: XiaoMigros on March 13, 2023, 11:55:11 PMI understand that! I was more referring to the things I've brought up in this post again, speak the dotted quarters and using more than one voice/layer.
Even IF there was another layer in M34 (and onward) it would make it more difficult to get to the middle C in M35 on time. At this point the performer should understand the voicing in prior sections and be able to incorporate if they see fit in this section. I'd rather keep it optional.
As for the upload the Tie on the Bb in m22-23 broke upon conversion. I'll need some someone to fix that, unless it's do-able in notepad.
Thanks for the feedback!
Quote from: Fernman on March 14, 2023, 10:31:59 AM1. I'm assuming you mean that there aren't any D's present in the sheet music. The D is held over from measure 1, but since its in the LH, I can't reach an octave since there is a D in the LH already.
I'm referring to the repeated Ds in the LH
Quote from: Fernman on March 14, 2023, 10:31:59 AM2. I'm assuming you mean in the RH you hear the C chord, In the LH there is only the C3 and C2 octave. Instead of playing that low making the RH octave one lower seemed to be fitting.
In the PDF you had Fns in the LH which confused me (I thought there were Gbs like you had in other parts of the sheet). Downloaded the MUS file and it's En there, so all is well
Quote from: Fernman on March 14, 2023, 10:31:59 AM3. I won't disagree that you don't hear it, but it is in the MIDI Rip, Musically, if this is a D major chord then is there any harm in including it?
At NinSheetMusic we advise against basing arrangement choices off of midi rips, and prioritise what we can hear in the original. I agree, musically it doesn't make a huge diffence, but accuracy should (when feasible) be prioritised.
Quote from: Fernman on March 14, 2023, 10:31:59 AMIf we are talking about m16 and m17, I slowed down the OST and I could only hear the chord progression as written. I don't hear anything else.
Your sheet already includes the last 3 notes of what I mean, there's a bass line that starts on G2 and ascends from there.
Quote from: Fernman on March 14, 2023, 10:31:59 AMYou must have a larger reach than I because I couldn't do that. While I understand ninsheet's has a high standard, I try to make my sheets playable to the typical player. I'll concede on this even though I'm not sure it makes as much of an auditory difference when one remembers the song they remember the lower repeat.
Players always have the option not to sustain the notes in other voices for their full duration (as is often implied in other pieces of sheet music)
Quote from: Fernman on March 14, 2023, 10:31:59 AMIf we are still talking m22, the Tuba, i suppose, is playing an a2 and a1 octave. That is WAY too low and it doesn't fit with the rest of the arrangement. So I brought it up an octave and to make it more fitting with the rest of the arrangement I added a harmonic note beneath the A3 to make it appear fuller. It is fitting and in the spirit of the song even though one doesn't hear those exact notes per say.
I think adding in the harmonic notes here is a little too liberal of an approach. What do you think of using full octaves instead? That would get the difference in sound across better.
Quote from: Fernman on March 14, 2023, 10:31:59 AMI won't disagree, but the bass pattern is what keeps the song going.
Just a suggestion, no worries :p
Quote from: Fernman on March 14, 2023, 10:31:59 AMEven IF there was another layer in M34 (and onward) it would make it more difficult to get to the middle C in M35 on time. At this point the performer should understand the voicing in prior sections and be able to incorporate if they see fit in this section. I'd rather keep it optional.
What do you think of something like this? I feel like it gets the message across without messing with actual note durations
Spoiler
https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/916614057107263528/1085299508553973851/image.png?width=636&height=128
Quote from: Fernman on March 14, 2023, 10:31:59 AMAs for the upload the Tie on the Bb in m22-23 broke upon conversion. I'll need some someone to fix that, unless it's do-able in notepad.
For this (and my point above, if you wish) you can use the tie tool (in my notepad its between the tuplet and accidentals tools)
Quote from: XiaoMigros on March 14, 2023, 01:34:34 PMI'm referring to the repeated Ds in the LH
That would be the Timpani in m2 I presume. I prefer to omit and keep it and stay with the melody. It keeps the arrangement playable
Quote from: XiaoMigros on March 14, 2023, 01:34:34 PMAt NinSheetMusic we advise against basing arrangement choices off of midi rips, and prioritise what we can hear in the original. I agree, musically it doesn't make a huge diffence, but accuracy should (when feasible) be prioritised.
Just for you I'll remove it.
Quote from: XiaoMigros on March 14, 2023, 01:34:34 PMYour sheet already includes the last 3 notes of what I mean, there's a bass line that starts on G2 and ascends from there.
If we are talking about the timpani section I rather not include it and just keep it as written via the audible chord progression. It keeps the music playable.
Quote from: XiaoMigros on March 14, 2023, 01:34:34 PMPlayers always have the option not to sustain the notes in other voices for their full duration (as is often implied in other pieces of sheet music)
That may be true, but there is nothing more satisfying than playing everything on the page as written. If someone wants to add more to it what a bonus!
Quote from: XiaoMigros on March 14, 2023, 01:34:34 PMI think adding in the harmonic notes here is a little too liberal of an approach. What do you think of using full octaves instead? That would get the difference in sound across better.
I listened to it on the octaves, I just think it brings down the feeling of the song too much. I interpret the song as light and peppy as this is the final push to break through the space armada in the game, and the sustained repeated A octave doesn't bring me that cheer. In m30-34 it gets into that low range briefly, but it's offset by the higher notes in the RH. I prefer the harmonics that keeps positive bass feeling the same throughout the song.
Quote from: XiaoMigros on March 14, 2023, 01:34:34 PMWhat do you think of something like this? I feel like it gets the message across without messing with actual note durations
Personally, I don't like a tie just "hanging out" there not being tied to anything.
In notepad apparently I don't know how to select notes. I can't edit that Bb or put a tie on it. The selector tool only selects the measure....
Quote from: Fernman on March 14, 2023, 03:58:47 PMThat would be the Timpani in m2 I presume. I prefer to omit and keep it and stay with the melody. It keeps the arrangement playable
I don't understand what you mean, I'm saying those Ds should be removed because I don't think they're present in the original
Quote from: Fernman on March 14, 2023, 03:58:47 PMIf we are talking about the timpani section I rather not include it and just keep it as written via the audible chord progression. It keeps the music playable.
Replacing what you have written with a 1-note bassline is definitely more easy to play
Quote from: Fernman on March 14, 2023, 03:58:47 PMIn notepad apparently I don't know how to select notes. I can't edit that Bb or put a tie on it. The selector tool only selects the measure....
Notepad (and Finale in general) use a select change-> apply to score system (rather than musescore's select on score -> apply changes system). First you have to choose the tie tool (and make sure none of the note options are selected) and then click on the note you want to tie from. Hope that helps
Quote from: XiaoMigros on March 14, 2023, 11:41:24 PMI don't understand what you mean, I'm saying those Ds should be removed because I don't think they're present in the original
Now I understand what you are saying, I added the D's to make the entrance sound fuller and consistent with the rest of the song. Listening to it without the D's gives it an emptier feeling when the rest of the song has harmonics. The alternative is to use the Bb octaves, but I would rather not.
Quote from: XiaoMigros on March 14, 2023, 11:41:24 PMReplacing what you have written with a 1-note bassline is definitely more easy to play
Normally I would agree, but when both hands move in a similar way it makes it easier to play. Nonetheless, adding the timpani part I still feel is inconsistent with the rest of the song and especially with the grandness of the chord progression. And certainly not something one would remember hearing in the OST.
Quote from: XiaoMigros on March 14, 2023, 11:41:24 PMNotepad (and Finale in general) use a select change-> apply to score system (rather than musescore's select on score -> apply changes system). First you have to choose the tie tool (and make sure none of the note options are selected) and then click on the note you want to tie from. Hope that helps
Maybe because the Bb is in a second voice that I can't create the tie? The selection tool isn't working. and I'm not seeing anything under the Simple Edit menu. or the "select change" you mentioned.
Also I noticed in m2 Fantastic Ike pointed out making the 3rd note from the end have its own flag apart from beat 4. I fixed that in musescore, but it didn't translate over to Notepad. And that I don't know how to fix.
Thanks for the feedback!
Quote from: Fernman on March 15, 2023, 07:18:18 AMMaybe because the Bb is in a second voice that I can't create the tie? The selection tool isn't working. and I'm not seeing anything under the Simple Edit menu. or the "select change" you mentioned.
You don't need to use the select tool, you can just use the tie tool like I said in my previous post
Quote from: Fernman on March 15, 2023, 07:18:18 AMAlso I noticed in m2 Fantastic Ike pointed out making the 3rd note from the end have its own flag apart from beat 4. I fixed that in musescore, but it didn't translate over to Notepad. And that I don't know how to fix.
I'm not sure if that's possible in Notepad, but it's optional either way so leaving it as is works too
Quote from: XiaoMigros on March 15, 2023, 10:54:48 AMYou don't need to use the select tool, you can just use the tie tool like I said in my previous post
I tried using the tie tool and while I can tie other notes I can't tie that particular note. Maybe because it is in a second voice? I keep getting that "error" sound. I can tie other notes across measures. .
I think it is because it is in the second voice because I can't even use the eraser on it.
Quote from: Fernman on March 15, 2023, 01:22:23 PMI tried using the tie tool and while I can tie other notes I can't tie that particular note.
Ah, I was looking at the missing tie in m16. This one's not working for me either, let's just make note of that for later..
I updated the score after listening to the soundtrack again I finally noticed the significance of the timpani. I incorporated that into beat 4 of many of the measures and in some cases in beat 3 on the second page. I may have changed the octave of the timpani notes to be more in line with the surrounding notes so it is easier to play and still sounds pleasant.
I also changed the key to D major per your advice.
Other formatting and dynamic marking were included based on feedback I received from my other submission.
The composer was updated based on https://vgmdb.net/album/133 which lists Hajime Wakai as the composer of this song.
Great! Glad we are on a more similar page now :)
Before I delve further into specifics, let's again talk about some broader points:
- I would really recommend writing the timpani/bass part in m16-17 instead of what you have there at the moment. It would make this section easier to play whilst also more accurately representing what can be heard in the original. Speaking of playability you could remove the bottom note in the RH Eb chord if you want
Spoiler
https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/844835144242298910/1090534185015459870/image.png?width=771&height=236
- While i would prefer you use octaves in the LH of m22-29, you should at least make sure that the chords you use are derived from the track itself. I think using the bass note + fifth would work; that would mean A & E up to m25, and Bb and F from m26-m29
Spoiler
https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/844835144242298910/1090535133553111060/image.png?width=850&height=363
- Thanks for changing the key to D major! I think it fits better. It's a good idea to then end the sheet on a D major chord (or something similar). Here's something short I came up with, but feel free to do something else if you prefer (just preferably not too long):
Spoiler
https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/844835144242298910/1090534262891089950/image.png?width=1186&height=267
Let me know your thoughts! I tried my best to find a middle ground. If you're happy with these changes I can get the submission files updated for you so you don't have to do all this in Notepad ;)
Quote from: XiaoMigros on March 29, 2023, 12:20:43 AM- I would really recommend writing the timpani/bass part in m16-17 instead of what you have there at the moment. It would make this section easier to play whilst also more accurately representing what can be heard in the original. Speaking of playability you could remove the bottom note in the RH Eb chord if you want
Spoiler
https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/844835144242298910/1090534185015459870/image.png?width=771&height=236
I reviewed the image you provided and that isn't what I understood the timpani part to be on the LH, nor in the score you provided me, but it doesn't seem to be that much of an audible musical difference. However, the left hand will be a single note and given that all the prior LH notes are pairs, for this chord heavy measure to be a single note sounds out of place. I added a harmonic note that exists in the other instrument chord in the score you provided in as a D4, etc. I brought it down an octave to make the LH sound fuller.
Quote from: XiaoMigros on March 29, 2023, 12:20:43 AM- While i would prefer you use octaves in the LH of m22-29, you should at least make sure that the chords you use are derived from the track itself. I think using the bass note + fifth would work; that would mean A & E up to m25, and Bb and F from m26-m29
Spoiler
https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/844835144242298910/1090535133553111060/image.png?width=850&height=363
I see what you mean. I changed all except m24 which I needed beat 4 to lower to a D to give contrast to the first beat of m25. The D is borrowed from the RH; The suggested m25 sounds unpleasant and out of place within the context of the surrounding measures. This measure pair needs contrast to break up the predictable LH repeated notes when the RH isn't doing much and give the song more of a punch.; m28 as I am borrowing the Cn is present in the RH. The Cn also gives enough contrast to make the next pair of notes have more of a pulse or punch to them as if you are breaking through the space armada.
EDIT: I played m22-24 with the E instead of the D. The E clashes unpleasantly with the RH F. Additionally, it gives an uneasy feeling while one is playing it. I reverted the music back to the D. The D gives it more of a grounded tone. I realize that note it is not present in the score as is, but when a song is adapted to piano there needs to be adjustments to make it not only playable but sounding pleasant. I have heard Star Fox symphonies that do have the A octaves and it sounds great with those instruments, but not with the piano. It brings the feeling down and somewhat sad. I hope we are prioritizing the feel of the music as much as the accuracy of the notation.
Quote from: XiaoMigros on March 29, 2023, 12:20:43 AM- Thanks for changing the key to D major! I think it fits better. It's a good idea to then end the sheet on a D major chord (or something similar). Here's something short I came up with, but feel free to do something else if you prefer (just preferably not too long):
Spoiler
https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/844835144242298910/1090534262891089950/image.png?width=1186&height=267
I give thanks and respect your suggested ending, however I find it quite abrupt and it ends on a high note which is odd in a battle where you want to end on a lower note to give you that feeling of "breath...ahh..... it's over"
I will stick with my original ending. The way I see it is that once it restarts in m46 it begins to sound like its coming to an end in m49 and then the same chords found in m18 are inverted downward to make it feel you did it, You broke through the space armada. And - at least how I see it in my minds eye. After breaking through the space armada The camera would focus in in front of Fox's Arwing coming into view from the front and you see his cockpit as he salutes or head nods you and then as Fox and company blast off to Venom the LH notes play as they fly away towards planet Venom.
I am aware Dm songs typically ending in on D, however to bring down the song "gently" (for lack of a better word) and using only the melody inherent in the song this is the ending i come up with that i see as very "fitting" and in spirit with the song. Also, one could say that the introduction begins in the key of Bmaj before switching to Dmaj, and then leads to an ending in Bb maj. So in a way the song begins with Bb and ends in Bb.
EDIT: I went through the score you sent me measure by measure and found there are far more chords which are consistent with Bb Major and F Major (among others) than there are chords where it is consistent with D major. Based on this analysis I am returning the song to the key of Bb major. The introduction may lead to a D major, but it starts in Bb major in the first two measures. This isn't simply an intro that leads to D major as the this same pattern of notes is present elsewhere in the song. Based on my measure by measure analysis I conclude this song is in Bb Major.
Thanks for your feedback. I have updated the files accordingly.[/list]
I know it's been quite a bit of time since there has last been input on this sheet, frankly I've been a little unsure on where to start given how much was posted about this sheet.
There's still a lot of work that will need to be done to move this along, the same feedback that Latios mentioned on the "All Clear" sheet regarding a lack of bass at parts (first measure, as well as m18-21) applies. In m1's case, I think you could move that current LH part up as a second lower layer of the RH, but overall, the goal is to maintain a bit of depth and texture throughout. Maybe from m18-21 you could add some pedal marks or con pedale with the goal of sustaining the higher notes RH, move the current LH up as a lower RH layer, and then add a consistent lower bassline part like the original.
Please also see the newer formatting guidelines (https://www.ninsheetmusic.org/forum/index.php?topic=12766.0) posted within the last month or so, happy to help with stuff that can't quite be fixed between MuseScore going to NotePad.
But again, sorry there was a bit of a wait here. Let me know if you have any questions on the above
Quote from: Kricketune54 on September 26, 2023, 07:44:44 AMThere's still a lot of work that will need to be done to move this along, the same feedback that Latios mentioned on the "All Clear" sheet regarding a lack of bass at parts (first measure, as well as m18-21) applies. In m1's case, I think you could move that current LH part up as a second lower layer of the RH, but overall, the goal is to maintain a bit of depth and texture throughout. Maybe from m18-21 you could add some pedal marks or con pedale with the goal of sustaining the higher notes RH, move the current LH up as a lower RH layer, and then add a consistent lower bassline part like the original.
I'-m good with adding the bassline to m1 as it sets up a good crecendo in m3.
M18-21 I disagree with adding a lower part. A) When listening to the original there are only three unique voice sets present, the voices currently in the music, and some timpani in the background. The focus is audibly the two current voices in the sheet music, where the intent is to build tension through the climbing notes and the higher note block chords. B) The timpani part is a notably different texture than what is needed to build tension. In game the timpani keeps the song moving, but on the piano the crescendo-ing notes would be enough to keep variety in the song. If the timpani part was included and the sustain pedal was used to hold the higher notes the shortness of the timpani would be lost. C) Because this is a building tension segment the higher block chords need to be sustained for longer than 1 beat and preferably at least 4 beats. Using the sustain pedal I think would muddy the climbing notes as well.
So in short: The song is building tension and it is a variation to the rest of the song to keep it interesting is the way I interpret the composition. I prefer to leave it as is.
This is different from "All Clear" in that in "All Clear" once it hit the high note the focus quickly shifted to the next phrase and you can effectively forget the high note. In "Area 6" the high notes are there to build tension and must be held for a duration to feel that suspense. This is my interpretation anyway.
Quote from: Kricketune54 on September 26, 2023, 07:44:44 AMPlease also see the newer formatting guidelines (https://www.ninsheetmusic.org/forum/index.php?topic=12766.0) posted within the last month or so, happy to help with stuff that can't quite be fixed between MuseScore going to NotePad.
I made the changes I could find, though I'm not sure what exactly changed from the prior formatting guidelines. Other than margins which I can't edit let me know what other formatting I'm missing.
Quote from: Fernman on October 10, 2023, 08:35:38 PMI'-m good with adding the bassline to m1 as it sets up a good crecendo in m3.
M18-21 I disagree with adding a lower part.B) The timpani part is a notably different texture than what is needed to build tension. In game the timpani keeps the song moving, but on the piano the crescendo-ing notes would be enough to keep variety in the song. If the timpani part was included and the sustain pedal was used to hold the higher notes the shortness of the timpani would be lost. C) Because this is a building tension segment the higher block chords need to be sustained for longer than 1 beat and preferably at least 4 beats. Using the sustain pedal I think would muddy the climbing notes as well.
So in short: The song is building tension and it is a variation to the rest of the song to keep it interesting is the way I interpret the composition. I prefer to leave it as is.
The lower notes for m1 LH don't fit the original's chord tone - I think En makes more sense.
As far as the above points go, for m18-21, it sounds a bit empty. That is the main reasoning why I am suggesting otherwise; I agree
m4-6 the Gb would be written as an F#, as this chord is D major. I see Xiao brought this up a lot earlier; I would say that given the amount of time that has been put into this sheet from our side... we're happy to help you get this up to the site, but we don't want to put things up that we know are wrong.
After looking at this for a while, I do think that this arrangement might be better written as A minor/keyless. The main melody tone that starts at m4 is definitely D# major, but this song starts and shifts to a minor tone for a good chunk of it. That would remove a lot of accidentals, though will need to make some edits to ensure if you do a key switch with a button press that parts with Db's or Eb's stay that way and are not C#'s or D#'s where it makes sense.
QuoteThis is different from "All Clear" in that in "All Clear" once it hit the high note the focus quickly shifted to the next phrase and you can effectively forget the high note. In "Area 6" the high notes are there to build tension and must be held for a duration to feel that suspense. This is my interpretation anyway.
I made the changes I could find, though I'm not sure what exactly changed from the prior formatting guidelines. Other than margins which I can't edit let me know what other formatting I'm missing.
To clarify, the point was about the style of arranging and the feedback we have been providing, as opposed to differences between the songs.
Quote from: Kricketune54 on January 17, 2024, 07:10:04 PMThe lower notes for m1 LH don't fit the original's chord tone - I think En makes more sense.
Adjusted to an En on beat 1 and Cn in the rest of the measure.
Quote from: Kricketune54 on January 17, 2024, 07:10:04 PMm4-6 the Gb would be written as an F#, as this chord is D major. I see Xiao brought this up a lot earlier; I would say that given the amount of time that has been put into this sheet from our side... we're happy to help you get this up to the site, but we don't want to put things up that we know are wrong.
It has been a long time since I've seen Xiao's feedback. And I appreciate all of your team's feedback. The reason for the recent change was I received some feedback elsewhere on the accidentals in m34, m35 and others like it that it should be a Db and Gb and not a Db and F# like I had before. Then I thought about note consistency and changed all F#'s to be Db's. not remembering the earlier feedback. No disrespect implied.
Quote from: Kricketune54 on January 17, 2024, 07:10:04 PMAfter looking at this for a while, I do think that this arrangement might be better written as A minor/keyless. The main melody tone that starts at m4 is definitely D# major, but this song starts and shifts to a minor tone for a good chunk of it. That would remove a lot of accidentals, though will need to make some edits to ensure if you do a key switch with a button press that parts with Db's or Eb's stay that way and are not C#'s or D#'s where it makes sense.
I'm not sure what a "key switch with a button press" is, but I see what you mean on being keyless, at least at the start. m2, I switched the Bb to a A# since it is an augmented D chord.
As for the entire arrangement being keyless... while I uploaded it as you suggested, you'll have to educate me on why that is. If the goal is to eliminate accidentals, the song adds a lot of flats throughout the song that are not just passing tones.
If I were to have key signature changes, m4 would be G maj (since there are Cn's) m10 would be Bb major, m26 would be Ab, m38 would Gmaj and m42 would be Bb maj.
Maybe what I had before the whole song being Bb is incorrect, though now that you've pointed this out, what are your thoughts about it having key signature changes in each section.
Quote from: Fernman on January 20, 2024, 09:44:34 AMAdjusted to an En on beat 1 and Cn in the rest of the measure.
Not sure I understand why you only changed beat 1? Listening to the measure, I hear An and En for the two notes that would most make sense in the LH.
QuoteIt has been a long time since I've seen Xiao's feedback. And I appreciate all of your team's feedback. The reason for the recent change was I received some feedback elsewhere on the accidentals in m34, m35 and others like it that it should be a Db and Gb and not a Db and F# like I had before. Then I thought about note consistency and changed all F#'s to be Db's. not remembering the earlier feedback. No disrespect implied.
As for the entire arrangement being keyless... while I uploaded it as you suggested, you'll have to educate me on why that is. If the goal is to eliminate accidentals, the song adds a lot of flats throughout the song that are not just passing tones.
Let's come back to this. At this point, I would like to go section by section because I think individual accidentals can be discussed in a more productive way than I was attempting.
QuoteI'm not sure what a "key switch with a button press" is, but I see what you mean on being keyless, at least at the start. m2, I switched the Bb to a A# since it is an augmented D chord.
This particular chord at m2 is actually Bbmaj, so it would be Bb not A#.
QuoteIf I were to have key signature changes, m4 would be G maj (since there are Cn's)
No, in this case the chord is Dmaj, so if the key was changing at each section, it would change to Dmaj, not Gmaj. I would not focus on the Cn in this particular instance because there are not Cn's until m8, when the chord changes from Dmaj to Gmaj. Not going to go through every example here for sake of time that you've pointed out, but (see continued response for the below quote as well)
QuoteMaybe what I had before the whole song being Bb is incorrect, though now that you've pointed this out, what are your thoughts about it having key signature changes in each section.
The point of suggesting the keyless/A minor was because of this song's starting chord, and by the fact that the chord changes/progression don't quite facilitate a key with multiple flats or sharps in my opinion.
One thing I want to distinguish for you just to be clear from the previous point, chord changes do not necessitate a key change for the song. Accidentals are added in for these, this is a bit of a tricky track because the melody moves around a lot; I've seen Area 6 written entirely in Dmaj before for example, and I personally disagree with that because there are a lot of Cn's that then have to have natural accidentals added.
Linking that particular transcription in question though, I think it would help otherwise in showing you the particular chords. I think it is those varied chords that make this song particularly difficult to arrange/transcribe. https://www.vgleadsheets.com/view/star-fox-64/area-6?transposition=C#
Edit: one small thing I noticed when looking at the sheet, for m31 RH, it is not generally recommended to write dotted 8th notes with a staccato as the note length is somewhat ambigous (subdividing a dotted note is weird and not really useful to a performer reading it). Rather, write 8th note, followed by 16th rest
This submission has been deleted by Fernman (https://www.ninsheetmusic.org/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=8072).
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